• We are no longer supporting TapaTalk as a mobile app for our sites. The TapaTalk App has many issues with speed on our server as well as security holes that leave us vulnerable to attacks and spammers.

New Heavy Duty/High performance clutching for My Sidewinder this season

justinator said:
Im not having much luck with the v2 b/o spring. Originally I had belt slip issues in the secondary up top even with a helix with a shallow finish....33 degrees. After adjusting my offset for the tapp and bringing the secondary out an additional 2mm I went out to test again and started with the 37/33 and b/o at 90 and low top speed. Took apart secondary and zero signs of belt slip now. I went to 35 same spring same tension and there was an improvement but not much. Went to 37 same spring tension again and gained more speed with still no evidence of slip. Rode 150 miles yesterday with the wife and lowered tension on the b/o spring to 80 and no improvement in speed but better average belt temps and better acceleration. still find it too much spring. at steady cruising speeds of 70-80mph the secondary is always trying to backshift, feels like clutches fighting each other,. This may not be noticeable to those who dont have trail systems that allow miles and miles of cruising at midrange speeds like that or maybe its just my sled. The temps were cold so belt temps were good regardless but hard to say how they would be on warmer days and softer snow. Prior to correcting my offset I was liking the black/tan more than the b/o in the midrange especially. Better pull and lower cruise rpms.
Click to expand...


The clutch's are supposed to fight each other, one is always trying to upshift and the other is always trying to backshift.

I don't understand what your complaint is. Lack of speed? It's not the V2 set on 80 on the 35 helix unless it's still slipping in the secondary. I have to run mine on 90 or more with the good hi-torque rollers. IMO you have a power problem, or I should say lack of power problem possibly. Have boost leaks? Just because it doesn't with a boost test means nothing, once warmed up those intake boots can leak enough to rob a bunch of power away but pressure test show all is well.

If the clutches were properly set for offset, why did you move it out 2mm if I might ask.

What belt are you trying to run? 825 doesn't seem to put black on the clutches like the 8DN or 8JP will when its slipping, so I don't think you'll see black on the clutches when the 825 slips.
 

KnappAttack said:
The clutch's are supposed to fight each other, one is always trying to upshift and the other is always trying to backshift.

I don't understand what your complaint is. Lack of speed? It's not the V2 set on 80 on the 35 helix unless it's still slipping in the secondary. I have to run mine on 90 or more with the good hi-torque rollers. IMO you have a power problem, or I should say lack of power problem possibly. Have boost leaks? Just because it doesn't with a boost test means nothing, once warmed up those intake boots can leak enough to rob a bunch of power away but pressure test show all is well.

If the clutches were properly set for offset, why did you move it out 2mm if I might ask.

What belt are you trying to run? 825 doesn't seem to put black on the clutches like the 8DN or 8JP will when its slipping, so I don't think you'll see black on the clutches when the 825 slips.
Click to expand...
The tapp required me to bring it out 2mm for proper alignment from where I had it with the yamaha primary. I only use the 825....When I had slip with the 825 it left marks, maybe not as bad as the 8JP but there was marks none the less and they were mostly on the fixed sheave which is what prompted me to check into possible alignment issue.I dont suspect a boost leak or power issue. Sled makes 17.9-18.1 psi everyday, all day. Been boost tested cold and right after a good ride with no leaks and good pressure hold, tb spacers have been shortened, good clamps and silicone tubes. Never have knock issues. Its not that I think the b/o is a bad spring, it works well for alot of on/off throttle riding, corner to corner etc. what I dont like about is the higher cruise rpms and while I understand clutches are supposed to be fighting each other its usually a non event and you dont feel it happening. Drive on hardpack and pull off into 2-3” of fresh soft snow then yes youll feel it, driving down a hardpack trail for miles and miles at 75-85mph with no change in conditions then I dont feel you should “feel” your clutch wanting to backshift constantly. I could very well leave it be as is and confidently say it will not blow a belt and work fine overall but I think the balance could be improved upon and effeciency increased. I was riding with my wife and didnt take any time to tinker.
 
If the B/O is not to your liking, then go back to the Black/Tan if you used it successfully prior, and tune the TAPP to that. The Black Tan has less pressure down low compared to the B/O.

I hear you about the higher cruise RPM on the B/O.
 
KnappAttack said:
If the B/O is not to your liking, then go back to the Black/Tan if you used it successfully prior, and tune the TAPP to that. The Black Tan has less pressure down low compared to the B/O.

I hear you about the higher cruise RPM on the B/O.
Click to expand...
Mike, is it possible I may have brought my clutch out too far and its affected things. With it lined up using hurricane bar I had some slipping but was still able to mph better by 3-4 mph. Now I know I had used the black orange on a test runs but I didnt record the wrap and results at that time so Id be lying if I told you otherwise. Like I had mentioned before, the slippage marks I had were more on the outer sheave so I assumed it needed to come out. After mocking things up and measuring a million times I came to the conclusion it needed to come out 2mm.......now I have no evidence of slip but im down on speed a bit. Ive never measured up a sled for alignment before so I may have very well done it wrong or missed something in the process. I cant really say with 100% certainty. All I can say is it changed results and literally nothing else was changed. Conditions for speed have actually improved the last week with no fresh snow and cold temps so Im gonna say conditions arent playing a role right now and skewing results.
 
I had to bring my secondary out also when I went to the TAPP primary. I used the Hurricane alignment bar on both stock primary and TAPP.
 
justinator said:
Mike, is it possible I may have brought my clutch out too far and its affected things. With it lined up using hurricane bar I had some slipping but was still able to mph better by 3-4 mph. Now I know I had used the black orange on a test runs but I didnt record the wrap and results at that time so Id be lying if I told you otherwise. Like I had mentioned before, the slippage marks I had were more on the outer sheave so I assumed it needed to come out. After mocking things up and measuring a million times I came to the conclusion it needed to come out 2mm.......now I have no evidence of slip but im down on speed a bit. Ive never measured up a sled for alignment before so I may have very well done it wrong or missed something in the process. I cant really say with 100% certainty. All I can say is it changed results and literally nothing else was changed. Conditions for speed have actually improved the last week with no fresh snow and cold temps so Im gonna say conditions arent playing a role right now and skewing results.
Click to expand...
last season I played with the black /tan spring , the only problem for me was my secondary clutch always ran hotter in slow tight trails vs the black /orange which ran cooler on the secondary , but on the lake with higher speeds the black tan then would show cooler temp , I prefer the 8jp belt vs 825 for more top end mph , we have proved this numerous times ,
 
STAIN said:
I had to bring my secondary out also when I went to the TAPP primary. I used the Hurricane alignment bar on both stock primary and TAPP.
Click to expand...
On my sled there is only about 1/2mm difference between alignment measurements with yamaha primary and tapp. I originally thought there was about 1mm but upon a closer look its 1/2mm. My mock up measurements said to take it out 2mm from hurricane bar. Im gonna call them at tapp tommorow and ask him if he has an actual offset number if there actually is an actual change required. Theres no mention of it on his site or any of his documents. Maybe he built the clutch to be bolt on and go as a direct replacement for whatever model its going on.
 
sledding rocks said:
last season I played with the black /tan spring , the only problem for me was my secondary clutch always ran hotter in slow tight trails vs the black /orange which ran cooler on the secondary , but on the lake with higher speeds the black tan then would show cooler temp , I prefer the 8jp belt vs 825 for more top end mph , we have proved this numerous times ,
Click to expand...
What are you running for offset when using the stock yamaha secondary with the tapp? Did you make any changes from what you had with the yamaha primary?
 
justinator said:
What are you running for offset when using the stock yamaha secondary with the tapp? Did you make any changes from what you had with the yamaha primary?
Click to expand...
my offset is 58.5mm , from my measurements of the Tapp vs stock primary were equal on the bench and bolted on the crank , therefore I stayed with the specs and went with 58.5 mm , I measure old school with a straight edge to get my 58.5 mm ,
 
justinator said:
Mike, is it possible I may have brought my clutch out too far and its affected things. With it lined up using hurricane bar I had some slipping but was still able to mph better by 3-4 mph. Now I know I had used the black orange on a test runs but I didnt record the wrap and results at that time so Id be lying if I told you otherwise. Like I had mentioned before, the slippage marks I had were more on the outer sheave so I assumed it needed to come out. After mocking things up and measuring a million times I came to the conclusion it needed to come out 2mm.......now I have no evidence of slip but im down on speed a bit. Ive never measured up a sled for alignment before so I may have very well done it wrong or missed something in the process. I cant really say with 100% certainty. All I can say is it changed results and literally nothing else was changed. Conditions for speed have actually improved the last week with no fresh snow and cold temps so Im gonna say conditions arent playing a role right now and skewing results.
Click to expand...

Yes it's possible. If moved out too far it would try to try to open up the secondary and slip the belt easier if the secondary was out indeed too far from the proper setting. Nothing better than mocking things up at full shift with the belt in the clutches with pressure against the belt and use a straight edge to align clutches.

You can verify the proper settings by allowing the secondary to float in while watching the gap increase between the washer and secondary clutch shaft, the gap will increase as it moves inward as you rev the machine to full shift out. This is hard to do if you use a stock like shim system for deflection adjustment.

More secondary pressure is needed IMO to run decent MPH. I have experienced less speed due to slippage than I have by pinching too much when the power is being made properly at the engine. Slippage is killer to speed more so than over pinching. IMO you are not over pinching the belt using a B/O at 80 or 90 wrap on a 35 helix on 270 and up when properly aligned.



Using a setup like this you can align the clutches perfectly. I used a ver light spring in the secondary to keep pressure on the belt and brought the drive clutch to full shift with no spring. Takes time and so effort to set it up but you will have perfectly aligned clutches ever time. No matter what clutches you are combining. Use a caliper to measure from the belt to the straight edge moving the secondary in or out to figure out the spacing need to line up just perfectly while at full shift and straight edge and belt on on the same plane. Can't go wrong if you do it perfectly.

FC5A6B39-A17F-406D-8C36-D0D6F2626620_4_5005_c.jpeg
 
Last edited:
KnappAttack said:
Yes it's possible. If moved out too far it would try to try to open up the secondary and slip the belt easier if the secondary was out indeed too far from the proper setting. Nothing better than mocking things up at full shift with the belt in the clutches with pressure against the belt and use a straight edge to align clutches.

You can verify the proper settings by allowing the secondary to float in while watching the gap increase between the washer and secondary clutch shaft, the gap will increase as it moves inward as you rev the machine to full shift out. This is hard to do if you use a stock like shim system for deflection adjustment.

More secondary pressure is needed IMO to run decent MPH. I have experienced less speed due to slippage than I have by pinching too much when the power is being made properly at the engine. Slippage is killer to speed more so than over pinching. IMO you are not over pinching the belt using a B/O at 80 or 90 wrap on a 35 helix on 270 and up when properly aligned.



Using a setup like this you can align the clutches perfectly. I used a ver light spring in the secondary to keep pressure on the belt and brought the drive clutch to full shift with no spring. Takes time and so effort to set it up but you will have perfectly aligned clutches ever time. No matter what clutches you are combining. Use a caliper to measure from the belt to the straight edge moving the secondary in or out to figure out the spacing need to line up just perfectly while at full shift and straight edge and belt on on the same plane. Can't go wrong if you do it perfectly.

View attachment 159156
Click to expand...
KnappAttack what belt clearance do you used on your primary clutch ? I have mine set at 20 tho ,thanks
 
KnappAttack said:
Yes it's possible. If moved out too far it would try to try to open up the secondary and slip the belt easier if the secondary was out indeed too far from the proper setting. Nothing better than mocking things up at full shift with the belt in the clutches with pressure against the belt and use a straight edge to align clutches.

You can verify the proper settings by allowing the secondary to float in while watching the gap increase between the washer and secondary clutch shaft, the gap will increase as it moves inward as you rev the machine to full shift out. This is hard to do if you use a stock like shim system for deflection adjustment.

More secondary pressure is needed IMO to run decent MPH. I have experienced less speed due to slippage than I have by pinching too much when the power is being made properly at the engine. Slippage is killer to speed more so than over pinching. IMO you are not over pinching the belt using a B/O at 80 or 90 wrap on a 35 helix on 270 and up when properly aligned.



Using a setup like this you can align the clutches perfectly. I used a ver light spring in the secondary to keep pressure on the belt and brought the drive clutch to full shift with no spring. Takes time and so effort to set it up but you will have perfectly aligned clutches ever time. No matter what clutches you are combining. Use a caliper to measure from the belt to the straight edge moving the secondary in or out to figure out the spacing need to line up just perfectly while at full shift and straight edge and belt on on the same plane. Can't go wrong if you do it perfectly.

View attachment 159156
Click to expand...
Couldn't agree more especially on belt slippage vs pinch. A lot of guys (and myself in years past) figured that if they were turning the right rpm, they were done, never realizing they were getting there with slippage in one of the clutches. I'd rather over pinch than slip any day!
 
justinator said:
Im not having much luck with the v2 b/o spring. Originally I had belt slip issues in the secondary up top even with a helix with a shallow finish....33 degrees. After adjusting my offset for the tapp and bringing the secondary out an additional 2mm I went out to test again and started with the 37/33 and b/o at 90 and low top speed. Took apart secondary and zero signs of belt slip now. I went to 35 same spring same tension and there was an improvement but not much. Went to 37 same spring tension again and gained more speed with still no evidence of slip. Rode 150 miles yesterday with the wife and lowered tension on the b/o spring to 80 and no improvement in speed but better average belt temps and better acceleration. still find it too much spring. at steady cruising speeds of 70-80mph the secondary is always trying to backshift, feels like clutches fighting each other,. This may not be noticeable to those who dont have trail systems that allow miles and miles of cruising at midrange speeds like that or maybe its just my sled. The temps were cold so belt temps were good regardless but hard to say how they would be on warmer days and softer snow. Prior to correcting my offset I was liking the black/tan more than the b/o in the midrange especially. Better pull and lower cruise rpms.
Click to expand...

I'm up on your "beds" right now & this is the perfect spot to check clutches. Although i forgot my temp gun,
Big long straight pulls with stop signs to analyze each run, push buttons, think/talk/yell out loud in your helmet & pull your sphincter back into it's rightful place.

That said..........i have work to do.
Mr KNAPP is making crazy! But he's right.
I'm going back to my stock secondary & pulling apart my whole intake to seal things up.
My sled pulls rediculously hard until the top end. My old sled with just ECOTRAIL is faster on top. How embarrassing!
My 240 & 225 pull same RPM's as 270 so i believe my boots at throttle bodies need some attention.
My PRO4 clutch is awesome, but i have no real world data or what to do with it so i'm going back to stock secondary with B/O & 35 helix.
I know this clutch & how to align & set it up. It's exactly what's on my old sled.

I also HATE my 5.7's & 180 studs...................but that's a different thread.

Here is where the JUSTINATOR gets his data from. The infamous Fort Kent BEDS
IMG_6767.jpg
IMG_6769.jpg
 
Just got a response from Tapp clutch......the clutch was built as a direct bolt on and go for the sidewinder so whatever offset we were using for the yamaha primary/yamaha secondary combo with good luck is unchanged when bolting the tapp on. I also asked a general question about setup........ since there are multiple ways to achieve the same shiftout and peak rpms. for example 1 setup may use a smaller roller with possibly a longer bolt and some washers, lower clicker number and another setup may have +1mm rollers with short bolts no washers and a higher clicker number and both have the desired shiftout rpm and peak rpm, so I was wondering if one was better to target than the other for fast trail riding /occasional drag racing and was told setups with lower clicker numbers would be better. I will have to try messing around with it a bit and see what I like better.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


Back
Top