No washer behind secondary

[fatchance]

The thing is, today we saw loose snow in the am and then as it warmed throughout the day traction got better so it was not just one condition and the clutches were definitely hotter than they have been for sure. I was really hoping I'd see a drop in clutch temps and was kinda bummed the first time I pulled the panel off today. I checked them about ten times during the day.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Well I guess I can see the heat could increase now that I think about it. The stock clutching set up is actually over clamping the belt somewhat so reducing the offset would make it slightly harder for the clutches to shift out. Further increasing belt tension, creating more heat. The stock clutching needs less tension to be efficient IMO.

 

[fourload]

Bigger helix? Also why would we be using this 1 : 1 spec when we all spend most of our time @ 30 to 70 mph which is way under . Seems like the higher 60-61 spec is correct for most of us.

 

[actionjack]

No blown belts. But going to tune. Shouldn't I prepare the secondary? I hate to wait and find out the hard way. But understand what you're saying. Idk.

If in fact we find the majority stop blowing belt at 60mm. Shouldn't I take the time and correct? B4 hand......

If you haven't blown a belt why would you change anything? My offset is 62.5 mm and I keep reading about belt blowing and machining this and that and custom washers, carrying temp lasers - it goes on an on. So I go back and read the threads from the beginning thinking I am missing something since I haven't blown a belt yet either, even since tuned. No need to change anything . . . unless you have to.

 

[Doc Harley]

If you haven't blown a belt why would you change anything? My offset is 62.5 mm and I keep reading about belt blowing and machining this and that and custom washers, carrying temp lasers - it goes on an on. So I go back and read the threads from the beginning thinking I am missing something since I haven't blown a belt yet either, even since tuned. No need to change anything . . . unless you have to.

Agree..... question, how much power are you making?

Clutches are too hot for Guys that are tuned. Premature belt life is evident.

While I'm not one of the leaders pushing the envelope. I come on here to keep myself up to date with "why, how to & what if?"
I'm not going to leave it for my dealer to figure out.

So, the questions that come to mind are.....

1) what is acceptable temps for all three components?
2) if I'm not in that range, what needs to be done?

So, this temp laser you speak of. Do you know where I can get a decent one? Lol.......I love it.

 

[POWERHAULIC]

I never carry a temp gun, just put you hand on the clutches.
If you can hold your hand there comfortably it's fine.

Temperature is a combination of everything, from offset to spring combos and helix angles. Efficiency is the key.
Once you have an efficient combo you will not only be cool but fast too.

 

[snowbeast]

I think he is saying that is what he is trying to get to so he can run with the pesky Apex’s. Not that he has done it yet.
That would be fast huh Pete.

That would be very fast Dennis! That would be what I would love to see on a well packed lake maybe,not a trail.heck running 122 speedo down a trail is plenty fast enough for me. Dennis are you still riding? My buddy who has a place in Sherman,rode yesterday,and stated trails are still real good,and we are slated for another big one Tuesday into wendsday,the day we were going up to camp again.

 

[snowbeast]

Exactly ^^^^offset is not the big issue here. The stock Winder clutching is actually a little to tight so you can get away with offset being high. High offset tends to push open the secondary clutch and cause over shifting, slipping. All this hoopla about offset is wasting everybody’s time. Some are actually way off above 263mm, so that’s an issue. If you have a stock Winder and are blowing belts in under 1200 miles and have ruled out any mechanical problems. You are most likely out of parallel.

JT you can take it to a lot of dealers and they just follow the measurements Center to Center and offset, they don’t have parallel in the manual. So when they do the factory checks they will find nothing wrong. Why did Yamaha used to have a parallel check on the older sleds but not the newer sleds? It’s important but since it’s not adjustable they have chosen not to give a specification. Many many are off a lot and they all blow belts prematurely.

I sound like a broken record here. It’s a lot of work to fix that’s why everyone is ignoring actually fixing the real problem. If it was as easy as loosing the motor mounts and fixing it the verdict would have been in on the issue.
But since only a handful of people will actually do the work involved there’s not a lot of folks getting the problem solved. Thus they focus on all the easy things wondering why the don’t seem to help.
You can lead a horse to water.....

So what is the real problem,and how do we fix it?

 

[Motorhead]

That would be very fast Dennis! That would be what I would love to see on a well packed lake maybe,not a trail.heck running 122 speedo down a trail is plenty fast enough for me. Dennis are you still riding? My buddy who has a place in Sherman,rode yesterday,and stated trails are still real good,and we are slated for another big one Tuesday into wendsday,the day we were going up to camp again.

Yes I managed to get a short ride in today in my usual spot. Trails were very nice in spots, and a bit bumpy in others. New snow needs time pack and freeze so it was just what we expected, freshly groomed and some had Friday night grooming on them. I much prefer hard bullet proof trails. The season is not done !

I’ve yet to check my clutches. I either have time for a 1/2 day ride or 1/2 day in garage checking clutches. Right now whereas my belts are going 1100, I am choosing riding over wrenching. But shall surely check on all clutch specs being reviewed on this post at a later time. Just busy...

Did quite a few WOT runs on the return of our loop with no problems. Still have some miles left in this belt. Shall be interesting to see if I get another 1100 miler.

 

[lakercr]

I think he is saying that is what he is trying to get to so he can run with the pesky Apex’s. Not that he has done it yet.
That would be fast huh Pete.

Correct - I need to be able to run that speed to give the one I'm chasing a race. So far the best I've done is 134 on real snow, and not what I'd consider fast conditions. In 600' I'm down 1 MPH (107 to 108) and we haven't had a proper lake race yet (he's on the mend with some busted ribs). I suspect that to stay close on the big end I'll need a bit shallower final, but not likely to find out this year. I didn't get out today but hoping to go do some pulls a couple of nights this week. Buddy just picked up a Tcat that will be getting some go-fast work done, so hoping we can tune off of each other. 24/41 isn't bad gearing for the type of riding I do, and it is similar to what is in the Apex WRT calculated MPH. My clutches are bang on for alignment, so from here it is just basic clutch tuning to get everyone playing nice together. Once I've taken 24/41 as far as I can, I'll drop 21/37 in and start again. I've already got good notes and a couple of benchmark sleds for 22/41 and 21/38. Test, record, tune, race, repeat until the sled is working as well as you can make it for how you want to ride it.

 

[ClutchMaster]

So what is the real problem,and how do we fix it?

Snowbeast I know you’ve read this before in other posts I’ve seen you reply.
Out of parallel clutches, you need to slot the motor mounts holes.

 

[snowbeast]

Snowbeast I know you’ve read this before in other posts I’ve seen you reply.
Out of parallel clutches, you need to slot the motor mounts holes.

what is the correct ctc in inches if you can,and how are you checking,just tape measure,with both clutches removed? I have a tool for this on apex,s,and you had to have primary still on,but secondary off. thanks pete

 

[snowbeast]

Snowbeast I know you’ve read this before in other posts I’ve seen you reply.
Out of parallel clutches, you need to slot the motor mounts holes.

OK I just did the math on 263 mm,if I check with standard tape I need it in inches,but are you using for conversion to thousands,the real measurement which is .0396 for 1 mm or the average most use .040 in any case,the difference is .106 thou. 263 x .0396 = 10.414 and 263 x .040 = 10.520 which one should I use,and how to check it?

 

[snowbeast]

Take an inch measurement then pug in the numbers here.
https://www.unitconverters.net/length/inches-to-mm.htm

So was the ruler at center of hub,or all the way to outside?

 

[NYTurbo]

9 1/2” is the low side=262mm
9 11/16” is the high side=266.5mm
Measuring with a straight edge off the clutch shaft OD to the center of the jackshaft.

Pretty tough to measure centre to centre accurately this way. How do you tell if your on centre of the Jack shaft ?