Real Clutch Temps Data

[XP123]

HERE ARE MY FINAL RESULTS!!!
Stock for me!
Or "stockish". Let me explain why.
CONSISTENCY! Temps & rpm's were EXACT all day. Loose, hard pack, powder. It didn't matter. My belt & clutches ran almost the same, slow, medium or APECRAZY. My rpm's were 9000 ALL freakin' day.
Basically i ran stock with 33/35 helix. I didn't try the 8DN or didn't get a chance to raise or lower the helix angle because of MORE breakdowns. (another post on my DRAMA week later). The TP rollers & 911 cover are not performance parts, but for longevity so they don't count.

8JP with stock springs & 33/35 helix set at 60:

-short 5 miles at 4000 to 5000 rpm's:
Primary=82
Secondary=108
Belt=165

-HARD pull for 20 miles at 7500 to 9000. My regular big Maine pulls:
P=90
S=115
B=175

-APECRAZY for 10 miles. SHARTED myself twice: Full throttle after EVERY single corner
P=110
S=125
B=170

ANALYSIS:

1. First of all, i just couldn't get a look at MPH. My brain said DON'T LOOK DOWN! My GPS on phone hasn't worked all week which would have made things easier. I don't think i went over a 100 anyways.
2. I lost a touch in bottom mid pull, but only on hard pack. Other than that it would just be track spin.
3. SAME rpm's all day. Loose, hard pack or hour at 8000. Hills. It just didn't matter. Stock weights & spring were 9000 ALL DAY!
4. Temps were close no matter what i did.
5. I'm not knocking the TP kit, it needs more work. 40 degrees worked best. It worked best with Carbon belt, but lasting 500 miles will not cut it for me.

I will use stock set up rest of year. I have 2 concerns:
1. I broke the primary spring last year & i just don't trust this spring
2. Due to possible coil bind & guys machining or adding washers(me) to rear spring

I may look into aftermarket springs that have similar stock characteristics. Maybe even adjustable weights that are similar to stock also.

I hate to be CAPTAIN OBVIOUS here, but when we add HP or different clutching, TRACTION becomes an issue. I have 96 studs down the middle. I DO NOT like studs on outer track. I need to break the back end around when i start to push. I love trees, but respect them. They always win at 90 plus! I am also NOT changing track or stud pattern for years anyways. Tapped out on the $ spent on this machine for 2 years. So the stock clutching just makes sense. I was happy today & so was my 'Winder.

CAPTAIN OBVIOUS #2: This machine takes serious belt warm up time. 5 miles at least. My Apex a mile down the trail, i was on it. And it pulled when belt was cool. NOT this thing. You can't feel the throttle response for 5 to 10 miles. I proved this up against 850 Doo yesterday. We rolled at 40 after long pull. I went by him. Sat for 10 minutes. We immediately lined up & i couldn't get by him. 10 miles later i walked him again. Just sayin'....

SIDE NOTE 1: 850 grenaded belt at 2000 miles. Took us an hour to get it out of clutches.
SIDE NOTE 2: i will change my belt at 1500 miles which is about half a year for me. If it lasts that long i'll be happy.

2 belts per year=$200=HAPPY STEVE

I will update the longevity later. I did 1500 miles this week & should be over 4000 this year...

Nice work Steve and to be honest you have just reinforced my thoughts from the get go before I bought into all the clutching hype. If you are going to leave the engine stock on these Winders just leave the clutching stock also. I thought I learned my lesson years ago but I guess sometimes I need a refresher course to get me back on track.

On another note did you remove your roll over valve with the mod? If so how is it working out for you?

 

[stevewithOCD]

KNAPP role-over mod working great. It makes me feel comfortable about my oil actually STAYING in my tank!
I always forget that every action has a re-action. Adding clutching means the NEED for more traction. I've stated all along i don't get enough traction with this sled & it's NOT about studs.
The TP clutching with the Carbon belt was VISCIOUS. I thought i found my true love.....then BOOM! That's why i tested and that's why i won't use it again. Now with more adjusting & testing, it's very possible this belt can be made to work & be dependable. But i just want to ride......that's it

 

[stevewithOCD]

We need more OCD guys on here like you and Dan! I have my clutches running super cool now with the Dalton B/O secondary spring and stock 35 helix. You have your Heavy Hitter weights set up really light Steve. I have 3.3 g heel 2.6 center and 4 grams in the tip and I'm running 8800-8900 RPM. I'm sure you would be much faster if you add some weight and get those R's down.

I have been reading all the posts of guys trying different belts and I'm still on my 8JP with 2200 miles on it and it still looks great. I have very little belt dust and now cool running clutches. My clutches with the TP Orange secondary @ 3-3 and 33/35 helix was running very very hot.

Yes, i am thinking same here. Going up next weekend & will put in Dalton Orange if it comes in on time. I will run 33/35 one day & stock helix next day. I'm thinking of getting rpm's down some if possible because right now it is stock weights & springs.
The following weekend i will be up for week & i might "play" some more. My personal clutch physician is on speed dial & we are getting hungry for results.
I am going to concentrate on 8JP so i can start to dial it in. I will have 2 days before back pack trip so i can actually try some things with the TP kit also.

 

[jonlafon1]

Steve, going to maybe to some temp gunning myself next trip. Wondering if I missed it in your post. But could you tell me where you shot your temps. Like the belt? Clutches etc. general areas. Thanks. Jon

 

[stevewithOCD]

I aimed about middle of Primary & Secondary 6'' to 8'' from each. The belt i just aimed in between the clutches again 6'' to 8'' away. I tried to keep it consistent measurement to measurement because at that point i was trying to compare different settings & belts.
Is this the "correct" way to do it? Who knows, i was trying to compare belts & Helix angles at that point.

 

[stevewithOCD]

MORE RESULTS & SOME GOOD RESULTS

I didn't accomplish all my goals this weekend due to 9 people in our group, but i was able to test the Dalton YBO secondary with basically a stock set-up.

SET-UP with 8JP belt

Primary: basically stock performance wise
-stock spring
-stock weights
-TP rollers
-TP 911 cover with glide washers

Secondary:
-Dalton YBO (Yamaha Black Orange)
-TP 33/35 helix
-TP rollers

I set it at 3&3 or 60 degrees first. This spring made a BIG difference compared to stock with 33/35 helix

Normal trails riding the temps were 145ish
Hard trail riding was 155ish
BAT CRAZY was 165ish

I say "ish" because i forgot pen & paper. I didn't want to carve it into my hand, not because i wouldn't go to extremes for my new TY friends, but i figured it would affect my riding ability skewing my results. LOL

RESULTS:
-rpm's were 8900 then settle to 8800
-with this rear spring, my belt ran about 10 degrees cooler than same set-up with stock spring or any of my Thunder Products set-ups (so far)
-I gained about 2 mpg
-saw 110 easily on trail (last week i was stuck around 100 on speedo)

NOW FOR THE KICKER:
When running up against the 850 who was in on my test plans on 20 to 40 mph roll ons, last week i would pull him 3 to 5 lengths then slowly pull away or just stay there

NOW i pulled him by 15 to 20 sled lengths before he hit 100!
He said i would beat last weeks sled set-up by 10 lengths! HIS WORDS!

I wrapped it to 70 next day, but with fresh snow i couldn't get the best grasp on the difference.
I cleaned the pan first & there is less belt dust. No way to accurately measure this other than "my hands were less yucky".
I'm not sure "my hands were less yucky" will satisfy KNAPP or Dan, but i'm stevewithOCD not stevewithPHD. LOL

Next time up i would love to get my GPS working & remember my pencil so i can get results for 70 degrees, stock helix & THEN start trying the TP primary set-up. I think with HH weights i can precisely tune this sucka'!

I HONESTLY believe this Dalton spring is one of the least expensive must haves for every STOCK Sidewinder after skis.......

 

[ClutchMaster]

Thanks Steveo,
Once again you’ve done a Terrific job! Seriously I love the head to head testing with the direct competitors Fastest sled! 15~20 sleds LMFAO. They sound pretty good tho.....lots of bark not much bite. Thanks for all your efforts!
Cheers, CM

 

[NOS-PRO]

Just seeing this post. Not knocking what Steve has done.....so that's not why I am asking this question. Just getting facts mentioned.

I have a question....
Steve, Why were the TP weights empty in the tip?
This is only going to cause the belt to slip and cause heat in the belt and clutches. The proof is in the rpm numbers posted. A Gates carbon fiber belt will not pull more rpms than an 8DN or 8JP.... it's always 200 less and this proves to me that the belt was slipping. (Belt slipping - no top end mph and hot belt and clutches)

The TP kit was designed to work at 8,750-8,850

@Keith Schmitz is one of the stockers I clutched with basically the same SW at yours Steve. Ran over 120mph easily.

 

[Keith Schmitz]

Just seeing this post. Not knocking what Steve has done.....so that's not why I am asking this question. Just getting facts mentioned.

I have a question....
Steve, Why were the TP weights empty in the tip?
This is only going to cause the belt to slip and cause heat in the belt and clutches. The proof is in the rpm numbers posted. A Gates carbon fiber belt will not pull more rpms than an 8DN or 8JP.... it's always 200 less and this proves to me that the belt was slipping. (Belt slipping - no top end mph and hot belt and clutches)

The TP kit was designed to work at 8,750-8,850

@Keith Schmitz is one of the stockers I clutched with basically the same SW at yours Steve. Ran over 120mph easily.

122-123 pretty consistently. That was with the 7/16 bolt in the tip, and maybe a thin washer. @NOS-PRO can verify that.

 

[stevewithOCD]

Just seeing this post. Not knocking what Steve has done.....so that's not why I am asking this question. Just getting facts mentioned.

I have a question....
Steve, Why were the TP weights empty in the tip?
This is only going to cause the belt to slip and cause heat in the belt and clutches. The proof is in the rpm numbers posted. A Gates carbon fiber belt will not pull more rpms than an 8DN or 8JP.... it's always 200 less and this proves to me that the belt was slipping. (Belt slipping - no top end mph and hot belt and clutches)

The TP kit was designed to work at 8,750-8,850

@Keith Schmitz is one of the stockers I clutched with basically the same SW at yours Steve. Ran over 120mph easily.

Yes you are right.
At that point i was taking big swings. This was after a week in upper Maine & lake runs adjusting in CT when belt temps were high, top speed & rpm's were low. I had recommended weight in & it was quick, but something was just wrong. It would just hit a wall & i heard others mention the same results. I would pull 8800 on one long run then minutes later pull 8600 then next straightaway i was at 8400. That was at recommend weights.
If i wound the rear TP Orange to 50 or 40 (that i learned later) & re-installed tip weight, i may have had better results. BUT, there is only so much adjustment time when i drive 6 hours to go riding and buddies want to go.
Maybe something is wrong with my spring.
It made me go through whole motor to see if something was wrong there. There wasn't or least i found nothing.

I WILL re-install TP Primary stuff & tune it from there.
I believe i will get my best results.

My last post was suppose to be a test between stock helix & 33/35 with Dalton spring & different helix angles, but i just couldn't pull it all off...

 

[WVTurboLTX]

Just to add my 2 cents. Before I flashed the sled I was running the early version of the TP setup. Their weights, glide washers and a primary spring. Stock secondary wrapped to 70 degrees 8JP. Clutches were always hot, lots of dust belts would grenade around 1k miles. You could feel it slipping in the mid range.

Switched to the Dalton BO secondary spring at 70 degrees and temps came down slightly but not much.

Now I flashed the sled to TD PT stock muffler, Dalton DTAY-1s empty, back to stock primary spring with glide washers, Dalton BO secondary at 70 degrees, still stock helix. Every time I check the temps they are 100 degrees or under on both primary and secondary. Belt is always around 145. This is long lake runs or beating it on the trails at all different speeds. Almost no dust now and it never feels like it is slipping. Good back shift and plenty of engine braking for me.

Clutch offset has always been 60.9

 

[ClutchMaster]

Just seeing this post. Not knocking what Steve has done.....so that's not why I am asking this question. Just getting facts mentioned.

I have a question....
Steve, Why were the TP weights empty in the tip?
This is only going to cause the belt to slip and cause heat in the belt and clutches. The proof is in the rpm numbers posted. A Gates carbon fiber belt will not pull more rpms than an 8DN or 8JP.... it's always 200 less and this proves to me that the belt was slipping. (Belt slipping - no top end mph and hot belt and clutches)

The TP kit was designed to work at 8,750-8,850

@Keith Schmitz is one of the stockers I clutched with basically the same SW at yours Steve. Ran over 120mph easily.

He did it because I told him too. Reason as to why was to test the limits of the parts he had. I knew the belt tension with the TP orange secondary spring paired with the 33/35 helix was too high, so we experimented with unwrapping the secondary spring and removing weight to see when it would start slipping. We actually found out that at 30 degrees of wrap the clutch temps were lower than at 50 wrap. A belt that’s too tight sucks horsepower and efficiency, we want the lowest amount of tension to prevent slip but no more. (That Olav saying this not me) as for slipping up top I doubt it. The conditions were snow covered trails not an ice track. A stock long track winder with stock gears is not going to do 120 in that lose stuff. Besides with the recommended settings he did no better. Going from 50 to 30 wrap should have increased clutch temps dramatically, but it didn’t they dropped, so I’m not really understanding when you say hot clutches and belt? They were much hotter with your recommended settings? The slight increase in heat at 30 wrap was more than likely down at low speeds due to the fact his torsion was too low causing some slippage at lower ratios. The TP orange IMO would be better paired with a higher helix angle, it simply has to much twist rate for 35 or lower angles. No doubt it would work much better with an angle around 38~40 degrees. Of course a straight cut helix with the hitters, definitely not a reverse cut.
The Dalton setups have proven that stock belt tension is too high for good efficiency, so going stiffer on the secondary spring is simply making matters worse.
A lot of the reason you were seeing the Gates Carbon lose RPM on your setups was the softer belt was being pinched so hard it was getting stuck in the sheaves. This actually caused the rpm’s to drop.
That’s why unwinding the spring actually caused the rpm with this belt to increase remember?
Most folks running the Gates Carbon belt and your kit experienced short belt life and excessive clutch heat. Don’t feel bad I ran this belt in my viper and figured it out a while back, that’s why when I saw this happening to the winders I knew what was going on.

 

[NOS-PRO]

He did it because I told him too. Reason as to why was to test the limits of the parts he had. I knew the belt tension with the TP orange secondary spring paired with the 33/35 helix was too high, so we experimented with unwrapping the secondary spring and removing weight to see when it would start slipping. We actually found out that at 30 degrees of wrap the clutch temps were lower than at 50 wrap. A belt that’s too tight sucks horsepower and efficiency, we want the lowest amount of tension to prevent slip but no more. (That Olav saying this not me) as for slipping up top I doubt it. The conditions were snow covered trails not an ice track. A stock long track winder with stock gears is not going to do 120 in that lose stuff. Besides with the recommended settings he did no better. Going from 50 to 30 wrap should have increased clutch temps dramatically, but it didn’t they dropped, so I’m not really understanding when you say hot clutches and belt? They were much hotter with your recommended settings? The slight increase in heat at 30 wrap was more than likely down at low speeds due to the fact his torsion was too low causing some slippage at lower ratios. The TP orange IMO would be better paired with a higher helix angle, it simply has to much twist rate for 35 or lower angles. No doubt it would work much better with an angle around 38~40 degrees. Of course a straight cut helix with the hitters, definitely not a reverse cut.
The Dalton setups have proven that stock belt tension is too high for good efficiency, so going stiffer on the secondary spring is simply making matters worse.
A lot of the reason you were seeing the Gates Carbon lose RPM on your setups was the softer belt was being pinched so hard it was getting stuck in the sheaves. This actually caused the rpm’s to drop.
That’s why unwinding the spring actually caused the rpm with this belt to increase remember?
Most folks running the Gates Carbon belt and your kit experienced short belt life and excessive clutch heat. Don’t feel bad I ran this belt in my viper and figured it out a while back, that’s why when I saw this happening to the winders I knew what was going on.

But removing weight from the tip of the weight will make the weights light in the tip and slip up on top end. (the primary I mean)

I agree with what you are saying about pinching the belt is not good....and agree that lower secondary spring tension works better....

But some here I don't agree with. With all the 33/35 helix's along with orange TP springs and weight kits I have put in, especially on stockers.... the temps haven't been bad and no belt blowing on 95% of the sleds I've worked on, installed kits. Bringing down the spring tension has brought down temps so I agree that more twist was holding the belts more. That is why I posted to bring the TP orange down to 2-3 instead of the 3-3 setting.

(In all our testing), taking the 8DN or 8JP belt off of a good running clutch setup, the Gates belt has always dropped rpms.

We are all here to try and figure out issues with what's going on. I wish we all lived closer to see each other and figure these things personally....but know we can't. All of us are going to have other opinions....that's the human part of us. It's just that I see what works on sleds including my sled and all the testing with sleds and I only see that. I'm trying to understand other peoples problems without being there....but it's hard. Some I take to heart, some I don't. It's depressing when someone is not liking their sled or having problems.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Sounds good, it might have been slipping slightly but nothing to be concerned about. Just needed a tad more weight to get the rpms down imo. Slipping at full shift generally heats up the sheaves/belt pretty quick so if it was slipping it wasn’t very much. he had no belt rubber on the sheaves.
Gates belt has dropped rpm on my viper also, but same deal when I used a lighter secondary spring the rpms actually increased and temps went down. Opposite of what should have happened.
M2C

 

[jonlafon1]

So today was going to be clutch temp day. Unfortunately my gun would not work properly. But I used the old fashioned method which I prefer. Holding your hands on as long as you would like is my method to a good clutch job. So did some 40-60 mph runs occasional hammers. Stopped and could hold my hands on anywhere as far as clutches. My primary was warmer then secondary. Next run was 2 miles on trail going north into White Pine. Upper Michigan The SLOWEST I WENT was 85 mph in 2 miles. Pulled it hard three times. Well over 100. Stopped and clutches were barely warm. Could hold hands anywhere I wantedas long as I wanted. The belt was the warmest. This is pretty much the same set up I have run for 4600 miles now. STM straight 38 with stock secondary spring wrapped at 6/1. Yellow green yellow Yamaha primary spring with 58.3 gram base heavy hitters 3.3 grams heel .9 grams middle 4.6 grams tip. 8dn belt. SE 137 MODEL with coupler blocks removed. It pulls the skis to 80 mph. At 55 -60 you can pull the skies. Top end is mid to upper 120's. Speedo. This sled is also flashed with TD eco tune with turbo force muffler. 200 plus studs from zero miles. Had the opportunity to ride with Snowaddict from this site. For two days. One of the days I punched it 25 times or so and got sled into 120's> no blown belts. This set up is crazy pull 0-100 and very good on gas and belts. I will let him maybe say what he thought of it when had rode it. This set up plain WORKS and Pulls hard AND engine breaks/backshifts.