Real Clutch Temps Data

[ClutchMaster]

Well the secondary is starting to get hot with the 8dn, we are at the minimum belt tension limit for this belt at WFO. It doesn’t grip as good as the 8jp. 8jp belt is hot but sheaves are cool, not a big deal but it’s getting to its limit also. 3/0 wrap not enough for either of these belts. 8dn belt will always run cooler because it’s harder. Looks like 40 wrap is working best. He’s got the stock setup in now but no WiFi so looking forward to the data! Be nice to see the Dalton secondary spring with this test! I bet it’s lower spring rate would work well, you could probably twist it more down low for better backshift and not over tension the belt up on the big end. TP orange would be a better choice for a straight 40 degree helix IMO. This is good stuff Steveo, show me another post with data this good! Be hard to find 4 sure.

 

[fatchance]

^^^yeah, that's what i said.... and i am just a young grasshopper!

 

[jonlafon1]

I think that would be great for the big sweeping trails, but not so much for the tight twisty stuff i ride on. If i'm going 30 MPH i'm flying at times! I actually think i would like some more heel weight! Running 41/37 now

Actually I find and imo the heavy tip and light middle makes for great twisters. I feel it back shift better with more tip weight. HH are a curved aggressive weight that "acts heavy". Compared to its actual weight. Think about the weight moving up and down and the influence of the tip weighted heavy and that lift and fall. The heel is important but not nearly as important as the tip. its that heavy squeeze when the turbo and motor load up and making it work that weight up all the way shifted out.

 

[fatchance]

Actually I find and imo the heavy tip and light middle makes for great twisters. I feel it back shift better with more tip weight. HH are a curved aggressive weight that "acts heavy". Compared to its actual weight. Think about the weight moving up and down and the influence of the tip weighted heavy and that lift and fall. The heel is important but not nearly as important as the tip. its that heavy squeeze when the turbo and motor load up and making it work that weight up all the way shifted out.

I do agree it would upshift better with weight in the tip, but if the weights are not "swung out enough" don't they become a liability and not have the leverage to back shift?

 

[ClutchMaster]

Actually I find and imo the heavy tip and light middle makes for great twisters. I feel it back shift better with more tip weight. HH are a curved aggressive weight that "acts heavy". Compared to its actual weight. Think about the weight moving up and down and the influence of the tip weighted heavy and that lift and fall. The heel is important but not nearly as important as the tip. its that heavy squeeze when the turbo and motor load up and making it work that weight up all the way shifted out.

Yea when that tip becomes untucked hits hard as hell! But at lower speed backshift is good. Just about the time the turbo spools

 

[ClutchMaster]

I do agree it would back shift better with weight in the tip, but if the weights are not "swung out enough" don't they become a liability and not have the leverage to back shift?

I think you meant upshift? Yea just keep it light in the center. In Steveo’s case WHEN he gets tuned his base weight will be better suited and then he can play with weight placement.

 

[fatchance]

I think we have to consider tunes as well... i'm running the hard low hitting Hurricane tune compared to the higher rpm hitting tune of Evo and that is not a knock in any way on the Evo tune it's just a different methodology

 

[fatchance]

Yes CM i mis-typed. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around this upshifting without over revving on these ramped up tunes.

 

[stevewithOCD]

HERE ARE MY FINAL RESULTS!!!
Stock for me!
Or "stockish". Let me explain why.
CONSISTENCY! Temps & rpm's were EXACT all day. Loose, hard pack, powder. It didn't matter. My belt & clutches ran almost the same, slow, medium or APECRAZY. My rpm's were 9000 ALL freakin' day.
Basically i ran stock with 33/35 helix. I didn't try the 8DN or didn't get a chance to raise or lower the helix angle because of MORE breakdowns. (another post on my DRAMA week later). The TP rollers & 911 cover are not performance parts, but for longevity so they don't count.

8JP with stock springs & 33/35 helix set at 60:

-short 5 miles at 4000 to 5000 rpm's:
Primary=82
Secondary=108
Belt=165

-HARD pull for 20 miles at 7500 to 9000. My regular big Maine pulls:
P=90
S=115
B=175

-APECRAZY for 10 miles. SHARTED myself twice: Full throttle after EVERY single corner
P=110
S=125
B=170

ANALYSIS:

1. First of all, i just couldn't get a look at MPH. My brain said DON'T LOOK DOWN! My GPS on phone hasn't worked all week which would have made things easier. I don't think i went over a 100 anyways.
2. I lost a touch in bottom mid pull, but only on hard pack. Other than that it would just be track spin.
3. SAME rpm's all day. Loose, hard pack or hour at 8000. Hills. It just didn't matter. Stock weights & spring were 9000 ALL DAY!
4. Temps were close no matter what i did.
5. I'm not knocking the TP kit, it needs more work. 40 degrees worked best. It worked best with Carbon belt, but lasting 500 miles will not cut it for me.

I will use stock set up rest of year. I have 2 concerns:
1. I broke the primary spring last year & i just don't trust this spring
2. Due to possible coil bind & guys machining or adding washers(me) to rear spring

I may look into aftermarket springs that have similar stock characteristics. Maybe even adjustable weights that are similar to stock also.

I hate to be CAPTAIN OBVIOUS here, but when we add HP or different clutching, TRACTION becomes an issue. I have 96 studs down the middle. I DO NOT like studs on outer track. I need to break the back end around when i start to push. I love trees, but respect them. They always win at 90 plus! I am also NOT changing track or stud pattern for years anyways. Tapped out on the $ spent on this machine for 2 years. So the stock clutching just makes sense. I was happy today & so was my 'Winder.

CAPTAIN OBVIOUS #2: This machine takes serious belt warm up time. 5 miles at least. My Apex a mile down the trail, i was on it. And it pulled when belt was cool. NOT this thing. You can't feel the throttle response for 5 to 10 miles. I proved this up against 850 Doo yesterday. We rolled at 40 after long pull. I went by him. Sat for 10 minutes. We immediately lined up & i couldn't get by him. 10 miles later i walked him again. Just sayin'....

SIDE NOTE 1: 850 grenaded belt at 2000 miles. Took us an hour to get it out of clutches.
SIDE NOTE 2: i will change my belt at 1500 miles which is about half a year for me. If it lasts that long i'll be happy.

2 belts per year=$200=HAPPY STEVE

I will update the longevity later. I did 1500 miles this week & should be over 4000 this year...

 

[stevewithOCD]

I am open to Dalton springs & others, i just can't play next full week up here, We are back-packing it & that means just ride....then ride some more

 

[ClutchMaster]

Steveo keep the hitters for when you tune it. They will work just fine. If you use the flat weights your going to need gobs of weight to achieve the same results.
Biggest problem with your setup was the secondary setup. To low helix angle and huge secondary spring=too much belt squeeze.
When you get tuned I’m sure we can make them work just fine. M2C

 

[fatchance]

^^^just pick up some heavy hardware!

 

[stevewithOCD]

Some of the trails i had to "deal" with

 

[Beerman]

More stuff today boys. I have "regular" trail riding temps.
I will use stock set up tomorrow for final analysis.
I have come to some conclusions also. Yes the 8JP outperforms the 8DN, but i will have an 8DN as a third belt on me at all times. The 8DN with this last set up was soft on bottom, took a half second more to get up to 9000 rpm's & was 4 mph slower on top. It actually runs good & is hard to tell, but i had the 850 pull up to me & then i cut him loose. I would then chase him down judging gain rate & how long it took to over take him. I did this throughout the day. With 8JP it was instant. With 8DN it was not. BUT this belt ran cool at EXTREME riding & for most riding is very good. I'm assuming this belt will last a lot of miles.
Here are some numbers & will explain later.

My set up for today:
-stock with stock track & 96 studs
-165 pound rider with 30 pounds extra
-clutch center to center =262mm
-offset=60.5mm
PRIMARY:
-TP Orange spring
-HH weights with just aluminum mid 3/8ths bolt
-TP rollers & 911 adjustable cover
SECONDARY:
-TP Orange spring
-33/35 helix wrapped at 30
-TP rollers
-OSP adjuster

8JP with 650 miles on it this morning: "regular" riding freshly groomed & loose
Primary =105/ 95/ 99
Secondary=100/ 110/ 110
Belt =170/ 165 /170
RPM's =9200 then down to 9100. rode at 6000 to 7000 for most of these runs

8JP after 750 miles i went postal on this belt for 50 miles over 8000 rpm's
P=115
S=120
B=180
RPM's=9100 then down to 9000
Top Speed seen on speedo=99 mph

8DN "regular " riding
P=105
S=115
B=160
RPM=6000 to 7000

8DN going postal. This run was absurd.
P=125
S=150
B=160
RPM's=9000 down to 8900
Top Speed seen=94 mph

A couple of notes here. I knew i'd be over-revving & saw 9400 rpm's a few times, but i wanted to over achieve today & bring rpm's down later.
I tried some "regular" trail riding temps. I've been called a Hummingbird on Crack before so i don't do anything "slow"!
The 8JP pulls were hard pulls then i settled at 6000 to 6500 rpm's for 15 minutes thinking the belt would cool, but it didn't. The clutches cooled, but not the belt telling me maybe some vents are in order here.
The 8JP clutches were almost cold. 99 degrees? SERIOUS? If my mom used a Rectal Thermometer on me; i'd be going to school that day!
She still has that Thermometer by the way.
The 8JP was pulling hard. I mean scary.
At 750 miles & a BIG 50 mile run from Kakadjo to Pittson Farms up next, i tried to blow the belt. I beat it like a Red Headed Step Child! I ran five 4 mile pulls over 8000 rpm's. I locked up the brakes getting sideways then nailed it 3 times. I ran it off trail in deep snow for a minute pulling 9400 rpm's. I ran it full WOT for as long as i could safely. 2 moose & a gaggle of deer slowed this run twice, but i COULD NOT BLOW THIS BELT!
The last time here i GRENADED my first belt last year going half the speed. I gapped my friend so bad, after a Reeses, water, jerky & drained the vain he pulled up.
On the way home i abused the 8DN maybe even worse. I'm not proud of it...............well......actually i am.

ANALYSIS:
-i think some venting may help
-8DN still looks good & most will not notice the performance drop
- i can put on 8DN without the clutch tools
- i run 8JP even with top of sheave & 8DN just above sheave. This made both belts even on bottom end, but not today
-top speed still has me concerned although i don't think i could run any faster even if i could. 40 to 90 is absolutely VISCIOUS for a stocker!

TOMORROW:
Primary:
-stock weights
-stock spring with TP glide washers
-TP 911 cover & rollers
Secondary:
-stock spring
-TP rollers
-33/35 helix wrapped at 60

I will try both belts again, but this time i will try NOT to go Apeshit first.
I have a new 8JP for fair testing.

BTW: my Doo buddy's Etec has been broken so he rode my 'Winder for the day & the 850 for the day.........he just bought a Sidewinder!

Tomorrow i will post STOCK results.

Dude . . .

 

[Beerman]

This is good stuff Steveo, show me another post with data this good! Be hard to find 4 sure.

There isn't another post this good!