SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
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It seems with all the talk of top end that I must remind everyone about the results from the dyno we had encountered back when we tested the CV slide springs. Our dyno and the correlation of the results out on the lakes and such are in exact alignment with each other and make perfect sense.
The reason that no one is seeing massive top end speed improvements is because the installation of the ECP Air Kit does not dramtaically improve top end power. This is not a difficult thing to understand and I fail to see the confusion with all of this. I just want to set everyones mind at ease that the top end power was not dramtically improved with the addition of this kit. What was improved was all the very offending areas of the stock powercurve. (4K to 6K and 82K to 95K RPM's) This is where more people spend their time trail riding than anywhere else. We only see on average, a 2 - 4 HP gain at peak so it stands to reason that top end speeds will not be dramtically improved. If anyone were to put the air kit equipped sled on timers, you would see that what has occurred is that we now make a little more power but much, much quicker. This will show in elapsed time much more then MPH. Naturally traction is the key and to prove my point, take Dave Burnham's air filter equipped sled on Otis Resevoir several weeks back and the fact that he was absolutely crushing everyone else because he had low ET and High MPH for the distance he was racing but not necessarily high MPH in long runs.
Now comes the variables of clutch tuning. There are lot's and lot's of variables. It is impossible to properly diagnose problems on the internet across the country. It has become known that it is possible to accelerate an engine too quickly and perform what we call "driving through the clutch". When you "drive through the clutch" this means that you are indeed making more power. The rate of acceleration of the engine versus the ability of the clutch to react however has been compromised and is no longer sharing a proper "relationship" to each other. The current quickest and fastest and record holder in Open Pro Stock grassdragging is a sled I assist in tuning here at ECP. In order to set a record, we actually slowed the rate that the engine accelerates down in an effort to avoid "driving through the clutch". This means that for every revolution that the clutch rotates, the belt rotates the same distance. ( or approx.) Back years ago when the harder compound belts that we all enjoy today were not being manufactured, the result of "driving through the clutch" resulted in "smoking the belt". It was real apparent that something was amiss in the clutch tuneup when the softer compound belts would go up in smoke. With the advent of todays harder belts and the fact that better synthetic materials are used, the belts do not literally "smoke" as easily so there is no real obvious telltale sign that something is wrong. When you "smoke the belt" now with the hard belts, the result is usually merely less speed or acceleration with no obvious emission of smoke to slap you upside the head and tell you "hey...look at me...we have a problem". Therefore as a result, with no smoke, most riders see the desired RPM they want to see and think that because they are pulling the correct weight etc, when all the while they are "driving through the clutch" and resuntantly not seeing the transmission of power that they should be because they are not grabbing the belt hard enough due to the increase in power. Once they put more belt squeeze to the clutch, the result is often a low revving engine requiring lighter weight to get back up to proper peak operating RPM. The RX1 in its stock form cannot possibly make enough power to "drive through the clutch" when the clutch tuneup is correct.
Being that your CVT clutches are torque reactive and not RPM reactive the massive improvements that the Air Kit makes in the torque and HP curve is more a matter of improving the efficiency of the way and style that the engine makes power rather than how much power it makes.
It takes 100 pennies to make a dollar. Depending on how discriminating a rider you are will depend on wether you never stop working on your clutching and engine. By and large, if you install our ECP Air Kit to our recommendations, the sled should run somewhat properly to perfect with some minor tweaks here and their to "personalize" the riding characteristics to each individual riders tastes.
Hope this helps some of you and good luck.
Freddie
The reason that no one is seeing massive top end speed improvements is because the installation of the ECP Air Kit does not dramtaically improve top end power. This is not a difficult thing to understand and I fail to see the confusion with all of this. I just want to set everyones mind at ease that the top end power was not dramtically improved with the addition of this kit. What was improved was all the very offending areas of the stock powercurve. (4K to 6K and 82K to 95K RPM's) This is where more people spend their time trail riding than anywhere else. We only see on average, a 2 - 4 HP gain at peak so it stands to reason that top end speeds will not be dramtically improved. If anyone were to put the air kit equipped sled on timers, you would see that what has occurred is that we now make a little more power but much, much quicker. This will show in elapsed time much more then MPH. Naturally traction is the key and to prove my point, take Dave Burnham's air filter equipped sled on Otis Resevoir several weeks back and the fact that he was absolutely crushing everyone else because he had low ET and High MPH for the distance he was racing but not necessarily high MPH in long runs.
Now comes the variables of clutch tuning. There are lot's and lot's of variables. It is impossible to properly diagnose problems on the internet across the country. It has become known that it is possible to accelerate an engine too quickly and perform what we call "driving through the clutch". When you "drive through the clutch" this means that you are indeed making more power. The rate of acceleration of the engine versus the ability of the clutch to react however has been compromised and is no longer sharing a proper "relationship" to each other. The current quickest and fastest and record holder in Open Pro Stock grassdragging is a sled I assist in tuning here at ECP. In order to set a record, we actually slowed the rate that the engine accelerates down in an effort to avoid "driving through the clutch". This means that for every revolution that the clutch rotates, the belt rotates the same distance. ( or approx.) Back years ago when the harder compound belts that we all enjoy today were not being manufactured, the result of "driving through the clutch" resulted in "smoking the belt". It was real apparent that something was amiss in the clutch tuneup when the softer compound belts would go up in smoke. With the advent of todays harder belts and the fact that better synthetic materials are used, the belts do not literally "smoke" as easily so there is no real obvious telltale sign that something is wrong. When you "smoke the belt" now with the hard belts, the result is usually merely less speed or acceleration with no obvious emission of smoke to slap you upside the head and tell you "hey...look at me...we have a problem". Therefore as a result, with no smoke, most riders see the desired RPM they want to see and think that because they are pulling the correct weight etc, when all the while they are "driving through the clutch" and resuntantly not seeing the transmission of power that they should be because they are not grabbing the belt hard enough due to the increase in power. Once they put more belt squeeze to the clutch, the result is often a low revving engine requiring lighter weight to get back up to proper peak operating RPM. The RX1 in its stock form cannot possibly make enough power to "drive through the clutch" when the clutch tuneup is correct.
Being that your CVT clutches are torque reactive and not RPM reactive the massive improvements that the Air Kit makes in the torque and HP curve is more a matter of improving the efficiency of the way and style that the engine makes power rather than how much power it makes.
It takes 100 pennies to make a dollar. Depending on how discriminating a rider you are will depend on wether you never stop working on your clutching and engine. By and large, if you install our ECP Air Kit to our recommendations, the sled should run somewhat properly to perfect with some minor tweaks here and their to "personalize" the riding characteristics to each individual riders tastes.
Hope this helps some of you and good luck.
Freddie
RXONE
Expert
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Freddie!
Freddie I know exactly what your saying about the top-end performance of your filter kit. I raced my stock shorty against an 04 Warrior running your kit and it did'nt matter if we raced from a dead stop or from a 30 mph rolling start the results were the same. The ECP Warrior pulled me out of the hole and through the mid-range but could not gain or pull away from me on top end. I am insalling my kit today and will post an honest comparison between stock and ECP filters installed. But one question for you Freddie. I noticed that in your instructions with the kit you left out the installation of the CV springs. Which I don't see a problem with being I have worked on my own Yamaha Vmax motorcycle and have a very good idea on how to change the springs. But for someone else it may be a different story. Thanks
C.J. aka RXONE
Freddie I know exactly what your saying about the top-end performance of your filter kit. I raced my stock shorty against an 04 Warrior running your kit and it did'nt matter if we raced from a dead stop or from a 30 mph rolling start the results were the same. The ECP Warrior pulled me out of the hole and through the mid-range but could not gain or pull away from me on top end. I am insalling my kit today and will post an honest comparison between stock and ECP filters installed. But one question for you Freddie. I noticed that in your instructions with the kit you left out the installation of the CV springs. Which I don't see a problem with being I have worked on my own Yamaha Vmax motorcycle and have a very good idea on how to change the springs. But for someone else it may be a different story. Thanks
C.J. aka RXONE
MR.HAPPY
TY 4 Stroke Master
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FREDDIE,
We lost top end!
Not its a little off, It's gone!
10700 R'S-10500 R'S-10300 R'S- 10200 R'S AT WOT!!
"IT IS GONE"
BR
We lost top end!
Not its a little off, It's gone!
10700 R'S-10500 R'S-10300 R'S- 10200 R'S AT WOT!!
"IT IS GONE"
BR
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
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BRX-1 said:
Would anything I say help? If so, please fell free to call me. I will try to help as much as I can over the telephone. You however have to have an open mind. If I can be of assistance please call.
RXONE...last line in the instructions is about the CV sparings. You might have an old instruction sheet.
Freddie
welterracer
TY 4 Stroke God
BRX-1 said:
I would totally agree...
I even added 1.8 grams to the HHs and still topped out at 105 on the lake..
Ran great up till 100 then falls on its face...
Rx1 cowboy
Expert
id have to say theres something wrong with your sleds. BOTH of my 04 warriros can see 125+ on the speedo in a nice long pass no problems. They climb to about 110 on the speedo very quickly and the a little slower from there on out. So far i have heard of other stock warriors running around 110 on the speedo but i am unsure of the distance or any mods they were running. Also i wouldnt be running much over 10300 rpms and for welt if you were on a lake was there adequate snow, if not you slides may have been hot and close to the point of melting which would may slow you down
yamaha-423
Veteran
Freddie, do you still have the dyno sheets from when you were testing the filters and stock dyno sheets? Iam trying to dial in a couple of sleds for friends that are using the filters for different types of riding/racing. If you can, post them or e-mail them to me. Thanks Andy
P.S. These filters do work great, I think some of these guys are not spending enough time to dial there sleds in. I will post some setups for Heavy Hitters and Heel Clickers when iam done.
P.S. These filters do work great, I think some of these guys are not spending enough time to dial there sleds in. I will post some setups for Heavy Hitters and Heel Clickers when iam done.
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
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yamaha-423 said:
I have them yes but they cannot be e-mailed. Well, actually they can but you cannot view them from e-mail without the $15K software package that comes with my dynamometer. Call or e-mail me with your mailing address and I will snail mail them to you.
Glad you said that part in your P.S. Andy. I would get yelled at from some people if I said it.
Other than Andy being in an impressive position of past experience of working with some great race teams and companies, there is quite the list of other impressive people working with these kits. I am grateful to all.
Freddie
yamaha-423
Veteran
Cool, thanks Freddie
FlatLandRacing
Extreme
One variable not mentioned is snow conditons, I have found with the RX-1 that it is very sensitive to loose snow. If I get in loose snow (sugary) and not a lot I might add, I am lucky to break 115mph but hop up on a rail bed or road that is hard hard packed and easy 125mph + (all speedo of course). This beast is not good in loose snow not sure why, probably all the weight up front on the ski's causing drag and holding you back.
ECP kit
I want to come to the defence of Supertuner.I have spent the last two days at the Sault I 500 time trials where several teams are going to be running RX 1's. It is very apparent that nobody has figured the RX 1 out. There are several Yamaha sponsored sleds that reportedly dyno at 180 plus horsepower yet the fastest sleds are struggling to make 110 mph on this oval. They appear to accelerate very hard as they are posting the fastest average speeds and I am sure there will be an RX1 sitting at the pole position race day. My point is this; if these guys with every weight and gear combination and a perfect test track to test on can't find the answer why should we expect Freddie to. The problem is in the clutching as far as I'm concerned. Freddies explanation of driving through the clutches makes a lot of sense. I think that the torque pulses generated by a 4stroke may be too much for todays belt compounds. One thing is for sure, we have a lot to learn.
I want to come to the defence of Supertuner.I have spent the last two days at the Sault I 500 time trials where several teams are going to be running RX 1's. It is very apparent that nobody has figured the RX 1 out. There are several Yamaha sponsored sleds that reportedly dyno at 180 plus horsepower yet the fastest sleds are struggling to make 110 mph on this oval. They appear to accelerate very hard as they are posting the fastest average speeds and I am sure there will be an RX1 sitting at the pole position race day. My point is this; if these guys with every weight and gear combination and a perfect test track to test on can't find the answer why should we expect Freddie to. The problem is in the clutching as far as I'm concerned. Freddies explanation of driving through the clutches makes a lot of sense. I think that the torque pulses generated by a 4stroke may be too much for todays belt compounds. One thing is for sure, we have a lot to learn.
Buster696
VIP Member
Freddie and others,
Over the past few weeks I've had some good quality time to look at this issue and this is what I have determined.
My warrior needs a lot of secondary spring pressure and a lot of weight in the 48g-HH's. My total weight in the HH's is about 70g. I run a low finishing angle in the helix and this thing pulls like crazy. I also noticed that it likes to be run at 10,500+/- vs. 10,200. It does make a difference.
I put a post about anyone running a CPR/Speedshop clutch kit in the Rochester, NY area, but nobody responded in my area.
I think I have something here, but need some baseline sleds/setups to run against. I've beating zr900's(stock and clutched), f7's(stock and clutched), rev800's(stock and clutched), Polaris-800's, and some great running srx's(clutched) in my area. In fact the sled that gave me the most trouble in an 04-warrior(in Quebec last week). :wink:
So, if any of you live in the Rochester, NY area and would like to do some testing with me, I would welcome it. Other than that... I guess I'll have to weight for some people on our 'airstrip'.
--Buster696--
Over the past few weeks I've had some good quality time to look at this issue and this is what I have determined.
My warrior needs a lot of secondary spring pressure and a lot of weight in the 48g-HH's. My total weight in the HH's is about 70g. I run a low finishing angle in the helix and this thing pulls like crazy. I also noticed that it likes to be run at 10,500+/- vs. 10,200. It does make a difference.
I put a post about anyone running a CPR/Speedshop clutch kit in the Rochester, NY area, but nobody responded in my area.
I think I have something here, but need some baseline sleds/setups to run against. I've beating zr900's(stock and clutched), f7's(stock and clutched), rev800's(stock and clutched), Polaris-800's, and some great running srx's(clutched) in my area. In fact the sled that gave me the most trouble in an 04-warrior(in Quebec last week). :wink:
So, if any of you live in the Rochester, NY area and would like to do some testing with me, I would welcome it. Other than that... I guess I'll have to weight for some people on our 'airstrip'.
--Buster696--
welterracer
TY 4 Stroke God
Rx1 cowboy said:
Both lakes i have been on had awsome snow that was packed down and frozen... I saw 116 on a snow covered road before i hit the tree but took alot longer than i think it should to get there...
I have the stage two clutch kit secondary set to 90%
SUPERTUNER
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Welteracer...if your sleds performance changed, you need to find the reason why. With all your posts prior about the performance of the air kit and your e-mails to me thanking me are in direct contradiction to what you are saying now. If it ran fast with the air kit once it will run fast with it again. If it ran fast with Matt's clutch kit once, it will run fast with it again. If it ran fast with 87 octane fuel once, it will run fast with it again. In cases where performance loss is experienced, it is rarely the product that at one time ran well. I understand that you guys do not do this everyday but blaming a product regardless of what it is that ran good at one time is not helping you guys.
I am just trying to help you all so please do not take defensive posture regarding this. PB took my reply the wrong way. I am here to help all of you whenever I can and want to be a good businessman but I am here to tell you that unless you changed something else on the sled, the air kit is not the source of these problems...especially after it ran so well. I could list all the things you need to check but Mr. Sled does not have enough bandwidth on this site for the lecture I would be able to compose.
Freddie
I am just trying to help you all so please do not take defensive posture regarding this. PB took my reply the wrong way. I am here to help all of you whenever I can and want to be a good businessman but I am here to tell you that unless you changed something else on the sled, the air kit is not the source of these problems...especially after it ran so well. I could list all the things you need to check but Mr. Sled does not have enough bandwidth on this site for the lecture I would be able to compose.
Freddie
FlatLandRacing
Extreme
Freddie, you should not continue to defend yourself. There are two many variables at play with a lot of these tuners, as you have said over and over again this can throw the results off ! First thing is you must establish a baseline and stock would be your best starting point and that is were ECP has tested the filter setup. Then after any changes you must test with same conditions and similar temp's to get accurate results, then add on peformance parts one at a time only making one change at a time and then re-test. It is very common to take a step backwards before taking two steps forwards to find the sweet spot your sled works best in. Rider weight, suspension setup, snow conditons are other variables that all effect how the clutchs work, sled tuning is a tedious process that I have found takes a lot of time and effort to get it right !
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