single ply track

[Sidewindo]

Anyone have positive experience with a single ply track without studs for top end. Is there a typical speed they will derail or break vs a 2 ply. This is a 153'' x 3'' power claw trimmed to 2.25". Are any of the shorter track models safe at high speed with single ply? I tried many searches but only come up with studded tracks not lasting. So far my track is holding up fine at 100mph. Can I safely change gearing to go faster with this track? Great hole shot but no midrange with stock setup. Thanks

 

[FJRwithSkis]

I wouldn't stud it, we installed one years ago and studded it, year later he had one pull thru and sent the stud thru to the other side of the front cooler, what a mess, never again.

 

[Erskin]

I would stay away, they just aren't made for high speeds imo and have no durability compared to a 2ply. I had a single ply on my 12 XF turbo and granted it was studded with a tune, but would ratchet and balloon at high speeds banjo tight. I can't give any great feedback on a long track and it may accomplish what you're looking for but I just didn't like mine and don't think it's a great fit for any sled that has some horsepower.

 

[stgdz]

If you are staying under a 100 I would say it's fine. Anything over that, especially prolonged hi speeds that 998 riders go at I wouldn't trust it.

But keep it under a hundred, yeah probably fine. What are you using it for?

 

[Jvji24]

They ballooned and we’re 10-15 mph slower in 09 on z1turbos
Junk

 

[Sidewindo]

If you are staying under a 100 I would say it's fine. Anything over that, especially prolonged hi speeds that 998 riders go at I wouldn't trust it.

But keep it under a hundred, yeah probably fine. What are you using it for?

This is my newest sled and I use it for practically everything. This being a M-TX model with drop and roll chain case I am trying to make a reliable crossover sled that I can use on an overnight trip, climb hills and boondock. So far this sled is doing all this very well. I would like improve time and speed on the occasional weekend field racing on snow. Sled can easily fully shift out clutches part throttle with this gearing. If the track breaks will it hit the cooler or do they fling right out the back? Not may track options at 153'' x 3'' pitch and this one hooks up great from standstill.

 

[SidewinderConvert]

This is my newest sled and I use it for practically everything. This being a M-TX model with drop and roll chain case I am trying to make a reliable crossover sled that I can use on an overnight trip, climb hills and boondock. So far this sled is doing all this very well. I would like improve time and speed on the occasional weekend field racing on snow. Sled can easily fully shift out clutches part throttle with this gearing. If the track breaks will it hit the cooler or do they fling right out the back? Not may track options at 153'' x 3'' pitch and this one hooks up great from standstill.

I have only seen one track fail myself, but it took the front cooler and tunnel out it hit so hard.

If you think about it the tension in the track is what keeps it from ballooning even more. When the track fails, that tension goes to zero and the centripetal force tries to push the track straight out in all directions. Going down is the ground, going out the back is nothing. However, going up and to the front there are pieces of sled that are going to take a hit.

On a studded track like my buddy had (long studs, no protectors), the studs took out the tunnel and front cooler but not the rear cooler completely. He just didn't have the gas tank punctured but there were fairly deep scrapes in the bottom of the gas tank. With the paddle track I would expect the tunnel to be mostly fine but banged up a bit, the front cooler might be a total loss though, that will probably take a majority of the impact from the track.

Keep in mind this is from the one track I have seen blow out in person and what it did on an 1100T running flat out across a lake.

 

[earthling]

This is my newest sled and I use it for practically everything. This being a M-TX model with drop and roll chain case I am trying to make a reliable crossover sled that I can use on an overnight trip, climb hills and boondock. So far this sled is doing all this very well. I would like improve time and speed on the occasional weekend field racing on snow. Sled can easily fully shift out clutches part throttle with this gearing. If the track breaks will it hit the cooler or do they fling right out the back? Not may track options at 153'' x 3'' pitch and this one hooks up great from standstill.

I have seen track ballooning described several times based on what people witness while the sled is on a stand, that is not what happens unless the sled is in the air, the rest of the time the tension distribution is very different.

While under load, the start of tension in the track is at the first ground contact point up and around the rear idlers, and across the drivers. The track is being pulled by the drivers, traction with the ground is creating tension between the ground, across the bogie wheels and around the rear idlers, over the upper idlers and then to the drivers, this is a constant tension force while under power. This leaves the only free moving section (with the least tension) to be at the front of the skid as the track comes off the drivers and before it contacts with the ground/snow. There is minor ballooning at other points (balance between centripetal and tension forces) which has little to do with where the track goes when it comes apart, it all just depends on where the separation of the track occurs and where the break is relative to its position around the track. If for some reason (and imagining a clean break) it broke right before the drivers, top of the track, it will more than likely spit out the bottom as you are both moving forward and the track is no longer being pulled. While the track behind the break still has momentum (moving forwards) unless you are slowing down very fast the track will likely spit out the back or more correctly just fall off the back. If the track breaks clean towards the back of the skid or under the skid, all of that remaining track will get pulled around by the drivers. I have not seen a track break, only the aftermath but I have seen high speed conveyors break on a slow motion camera (similar physics minus the ground) and it isn't a clean break typically so I imagine in reality a clean break scenario is rare and you have some portion of the track being pulled through for at least a few revolutions of the track until the track completely comes apart.

In other words, there is zero way to predict what will happen when a track breaks.

Based on where you live and assuming you need 3" paddles then gearing is your only choice, to make your sled more reliable you may want to consider dropping lug size as 3" is not a dual purpose track paddle.

 

[KnappAttack]

Track ballooning happens under power, just like it does on the stand other than what is contacting the ground. It even builds waves into it on the top side while under power. It will balloon up and contact the tunnel and anything in its path. Thus the reason to keep it real tight to prevent balloning. A track will do funny things at certain speeds and power levels, just like a Top Fuel tire distorts, so will a snowmobile track at speed under power. It doesn't run in a straight line under power from wheel to wheel in a straight line. There is a reason the fast racers run tight tracks, they know a ballooning track will slow them.

Two ply tracks are heavier and for high HP fast sleds. Single ply tracks are light and for slow sleds. May work fine on a MTN sled because they typically dont run up over 100 MPH. Two Ply tracks have proven to be stronger & more reliable in the end. Single ply tracks were build to be lighter and made for less HP.

I blew a track on a turbo RX-1 at 132 MPH under power and it ballooned the entire tunnel, top, front and back. It looked like you put a bomb under the sled and set it off. I've seen drag sleds endo after exploding a track. I've also just seen them roll out the back with no harm to the sled. You just never know what will happen when a track pops.

A Sidewinder should have a two ply.

 

[earthling]

Track ballooning happens under power, just like it does on the stand other than what is contacting the ground. It even builds waves into it on the top side while under power. It will balloon up and contact the tunnel and anything in its path. Thus the reason to keep it real tight to prevent balloning. A track will do funny things at certain speeds and power levels, just like a Top Fuel tire distorts, so will a snowmobile track at speed under power. It doesn't run in a straight line under power from wheel to wheel in a straight line. There is a reason the fast racers run tight tracks, they know a ballooning track will slow them.

Two ply tracks are heavier and for high HP fast sleds. Single ply tracks are light and for slow sleds. May work fine on a MTN sled because they typically dont run up over 100 MPH. Two Ply tracks have proven to be stronger & more reliable in the end. Single ply tracks were build to be lighter and made for less HP.

I blew a track on a turbo RX-1 at 132 MPH under power and it ballooned the entire tunnel, top, front and back. It looked like you put a bomb under the sled and set it off. I've seen drag sleds endo after exploding a track. I've also just seen them roll out the back with no harm to the sled. You just never know what will happen when a track pops.

A Sidewinder should have a two ply.

I defer to your experience but..

Well, yes of course there is ballooning under power but the two look very different is my point, if for no other reason that you do not have the limitations of ground, traction, and driver induced track tension when the sled is on the ground. When you engage the clutch, all forces come from the drivers pulling the track forward across the top, this translates into pull backwards at the bottom. There is a nearly continuous line of tension from the drivers over the top of the upper idlers, around the rear, into the track on the ground, is it a linear path wheel to wheel, of course not, it will follow a speed dependent path that itself is a balance between driver induced tension all the way to the track on the ground and the centripetal forces trying to balloon the track. An easier way to say this is that snowmobiles move forward because the track is being pulled backwards out from under it. This alone makes the ballooning very different. I agree, with a very loose track ballooning could become an issue. Don't run a loose track is the moral of that story.

Your dragster analogy is the perfect example. In the below image all energy comes from the center axis of the tire but the tire does not experience uniform tension, expansion, or distortion. If you start at the end of 'goodyear' below and look at how the tire distorts it is clear that the greatest tension in the tire comes from where the tire hits the ground. As you follow the circumference of the tire around you can see a lot less tension in the back and top of the tire and then the tire starts to experience more tension as the energy is transferred into the ground.

If the backend of the rail were in the air there would be uniform distortion of the tire and equal ballooning all around. Because it is on the ground, it will expand (a lot) but not uniformly.

You can see the uneven distribution of forces even better in slow motion, a microcosm of what is happening with a far more complex snowmobile track drive.

 

[Jvji24]

Single ply sucks. Under hp they balloon all the way around.
But what the heck, try it

 

[1nc 2000]

I defer to your experience but..

Well, yes of course there is ballooning under power but the two look very different is my point, if for no other reason that you do not have the limitations of ground, traction, and driver induced track tension when the sled is on the ground. When you engage the clutch, all forces come from the drivers pulling the track forward across the top, this translates into pull backwards at the bottom. There is a nearly continuous line of tension from the drivers over the top of the upper idlers, around the rear, into the track on the ground, is it a linear path wheel to wheel, of course not, it will follow a speed dependent path that itself is a balance between driver induced tension all the way to the track on the ground and the centripetal forces trying to balloon the track. An easier way to say this is that snowmobiles move forward because the track is being pulled backwards out from under it. This alone makes the ballooning very different. I agree, with a very loose track ballooning could become an issue. Don't run a loose track is the moral of that story.

Your dragster analogy is the perfect example. In the below image all energy comes from the center axis of the tire but the tire does not experience uniform tension, expansion, or distortion. If you start at the end of 'goodyear' below and look at how the tire distorts it is clear that the greatest tension in the tire comes from where the tire hits the ground. As you follow the circumference of the tire around you can see a lot less tension in the back and top of the tire and then the tire starts to experience more tension as the energy is transferred into the ground.

If the backend of the rail were in the air there would be uniform distortion of the tire and equal ballooning all around. Because it is on the ground, it will expand (a lot) but not uniformly.

View attachment 167775

You can see the uneven distribution of forces even better in slow motion, a microcosm of what is happening with a far more complex snowmobile track drive.

Your dreaming in a perfect world as if the forces on the track are even across the board.
Uneven track tension, track changing directions around the wheels, studs and stretch all play a part in the force on the track.
Dont forget tracks balloon up in the middle not just in a circle.

Run a 2 ply track on a sidewinder.

 

[KnappAttack]

A snowmobile track does weird stuff under the tunnel at high speeds just as these tires do. They get some weird waves under there that people don't even know about unless you stick a camera in there to have a look, which is easy enough to do now, but you can see the same stuff on the track dyno when the track is not tight enough. Tight tracks lessen the wavy and balloning effects by quite a bit. Loose tracks rob speed and have been known to break suspension guides off the front arm and of course rub tunnels, tunnel protectors and heat exchangers.

When they hit the tunnel too hard, its like putting the brakes on literally, sometimes it slows a sled tremendously of what could be if they didn't hit. People are always concerned how a track turns, by hand on the stand while off the ground. I am too, but the opposite of what most people do. I want it to turn hard and with two hands, most people not in the know, want them to spin easily with one finger and rotate round and round, which is not what you want for going fast. Testing will tell one what is quick and fast.

 

[74Nitro]

I used to have this argument often back when I was running stock class sleds in A, B and D stock late 90's early 2000's. I ran my tracks tight and you'd be surprised how often armchair quarterbacks told me my sleds would be even faster if I loosened the track. This was before the days of combination drivers, and the Yamaha pro action did a poor job of maintaining track tension through suspension travel. The most common belief was keep loosening until it ratchets, then tighten one turn. Haha
Just observing the damage in the tunnel form whipping tracks was enough for me to see that loose tracks would scrub speed.

 

[KnappAttack]

The thing is this, tracks explode like tires at high speed when centrifugal force come into play, and when your at high speed at the end of a straight away and the trail turns, you don't want a track coming apart. I was luck enough to be on a lake when my track blew on my turbo RX-1, but just a few miles earlier I was on a straight away on the trail when I was running just as fast at the end of a straight run and the trail turned....

I got lucky, don't chance a single ply track on these things if you like going fast.