Enclosed trailer
Not to hi-jack the thread,
In response to kviper's comments, I have a Triton 2-place trailer with a black-aluminum enclosure and have noticed when it's cold out, the inside of the enclosure gets a light frost build-up. Added additional vents prior to this winter but not much help.
Thinking that maybe if the enclosure was painted white or light gray like Triton offers now may help alleviate some of this issue. Anyone with a light colored enclosure on their trailer care to comment?
I don't have the space to remove the sleds from the trailer so that's not a possibilitiy for me.
Not to hi-jack the thread,
In response to kviper's comments, I have a Triton 2-place trailer with a black-aluminum enclosure and have noticed when it's cold out, the inside of the enclosure gets a light frost build-up. Added additional vents prior to this winter but not much help.
Thinking that maybe if the enclosure was painted white or light gray like Triton offers now may help alleviate some of this issue. Anyone with a light colored enclosure on their trailer care to comment?
I don't have the space to remove the sleds from the trailer so that's not a possibilitiy for me.
kviper
VIP Member
I have a Triton trailer with a Top Cap Top on it (fiber glass), It is white in color with vent's. There has been times when i have looked in the trailer in the morning and the sled's are white with froast. My guess is that the inside of the gas tank look's the same. I would think color would only make a small diff. I know what you are saying, The trailer makes a nice garage. kviper
flyingpig
Expert
Well Guys here is a new twist. I don't want to get anything started or be synical but here goes. We all had better get locking gas caps here real soon. I was in South Dayton NY last friday night and had dinner at the Hotel. After dinner I came out to find that someone had stole my gas cap. That wasn't so bad but what if some people are out to sabotage our four strokes because they are jealous. Someone could have put something in my gas for all I know! If there isn't a locking gas cap, Yamaha needs to come up with one real soon!
rkowal
Newbie
Good point. This is a sabotage job from the get go. The odds of this happening to 2 sleds at the same time are slim to none and slim just left town.
kviper
VIP Member
It would not surprise me one bit and had actualy thought of the same thing shortly after starting to read this the other day (some one put some thing in there gas). May be a good idea to have the gas anelized. As stated earlier, as bullet proof as these motor's are and than two unexplained instances with the same person at the same time. I smell a BIG RAT!!!!! Man if i ever cought some one doing that i would probably end up in prison. Some of these people get very stupid with there brand loyalty. Good luck to you but keep in mind that you are the first and only case like this, or has any one else ever heard of this? kviper
flyingpig
Expert
Well It was the first thought that came to mind the other night when I found the cap missing. If a person would stoop as low to steal a gas cap then they could have gone one step further.
Yamaha Corp. please sell me a piece of mind and design and market a locking gas cap for our investments.
Yamaha Corp. please sell me a piece of mind and design and market a locking gas cap for our investments.
Locking Fuel Cap
Shouldn't be too difficult for Yamaha to come up with a lockable fuel cap, only issue is to be sure the lock is sealed from the elements to keep from the lock becoming frozen. If not standard equipment, would make a nice accessory item!
My Yamaha motorcycle has a locking fuel cap with a metal cover that closes over the lock hole to keep out the elements.
Shouldn't be too difficult for Yamaha to come up with a lockable fuel cap, only issue is to be sure the lock is sealed from the elements to keep from the lock becoming frozen. If not standard equipment, would make a nice accessory item!
My Yamaha motorcycle has a locking fuel cap with a metal cover that closes over the lock hole to keep out the elements.
danq
Expert
Just an update now that I'm back in town. The trailer was locked so I think the sabotage theory doesn't hold water... (bad choice of words)
Talked with the dealer, they were able to free the valves with "ring free" and said there was carbon build up. They also said there was water in the gas. So they changed the fuel and the oil.
I've contacted customer relations and am waiting to hear back.
Lessons learned so far:
1) Don't store the sleds in a trailer outside
2) Fog the valves so they don't rust if going to sit for more than a week
3) Run ring free on a regular basis.
4) Run fuel drier additives on a regular basis.
5) Consider another sled manufacturer that uses stainless valves and can design a fuel injection system that doesn't carbon up the valve train under normal operation.
I'm not sure if the compression will recover with further use of "ring free" or not, since I can't really run the sleds any more this year. I guess my plan to use seafoam at the end of the season isn't enough. I'll have to use it on every tank.
I'll let you know what yamaha has to say, but so far carbon and water are not covered...
Talked with the dealer, they were able to free the valves with "ring free" and said there was carbon build up. They also said there was water in the gas. So they changed the fuel and the oil.
I've contacted customer relations and am waiting to hear back.
Lessons learned so far:
1) Don't store the sleds in a trailer outside
2) Fog the valves so they don't rust if going to sit for more than a week
3) Run ring free on a regular basis.
4) Run fuel drier additives on a regular basis.
5) Consider another sled manufacturer that uses stainless valves and can design a fuel injection system that doesn't carbon up the valve train under normal operation.
I'm not sure if the compression will recover with further use of "ring free" or not, since I can't really run the sleds any more this year. I guess my plan to use seafoam at the end of the season isn't enough. I'll have to use it on every tank.
I'll let you know what yamaha has to say, but so far carbon and water are not covered...
they were able to free the valves with "ring free"
HA HA Sorry this is get DEEP!!!!!
HA HA Sorry this is get DEEP!!!!!
Shivesy
Expert
Isn't this Apex engine the same motor put into alot of street bikes? If so I wouldn't think that all of the preventative maintenance procedures listed above are expected. I can see maybe don't let the sled sit in an enclosed trailer but the rest is an overkill.
ptt
Guest
How was the compression test done?
I still don't believe that they used ring free to loosen up the valves.
There are millions of 4 strokes running around(sleds,bikes cars etc.), it is not mandatory to run any type of additive.
Do you run additivies in your car on a regular basis?
Another question what fuel did/do you run?
thanks
I still don't believe that they used ring free to loosen up the valves.
There are millions of 4 strokes running around(sleds,bikes cars etc.), it is not mandatory to run any type of additive.
Do you run additivies in your car on a regular basis?
Another question what fuel did/do you run?
thanks
4-stroker33
Newbie
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2006
- Messages
- 11
Sounds like sugar in the gas tank.
ReX
TY 4 Stroke God
I wondered about sugar in the gas also.
Here is a link to something I found through a google search. I can't vouce for the validity of the information, but it sounds reasonable...
http://lists.twistedpair.ca/pipermail/g ... 31380.html
Here is a quote of the posting:
Here is a link to something I found through a google search. I can't vouce for the validity of the information, but it sounds reasonable...
http://lists.twistedpair.ca/pipermail/g ... 31380.html
Here is a quote of the posting:
craze1cars
VIP Member
It is not sugar in the gas tank. As an insurance appraiser who has handled sugar in the gas tank vandalism claims MANY, MANY times....I can tell you the above info is completely false in the context of a modern vehicle.
Without EXCESSIVE heat, sugar in the gas tank will NEVER dissolve or carmelize, and the granules are far to big to EVER get past an in-line fuel filter. Best case scenario, it falls to the bottom of the tank and sloshes around in there harmlessly for years like sand, never causing a problem. Worst case scenario, it plugs up the fuel inlet screen after allowing some of the fine granules through to the fuel filter, which then stops fuel flow stalling the engine no different than a plugged fuel filter.
Note the above quote he was referring to a timeframe of his experience between 1963 and 1970...these were carb'd cars with fuel filters in the engine compartment, usually sitting right smack on top of the hot engine bolted to the carb and steel (heat-sink) fuel lines...and long before in-line fuel filters were commonly located OUTSIDE of the engine compartment as they are today. I don't question his experience too much, because in those old vehicles, the fuel often gets VERY heated up long before it is filtered (anyone here old enough to remember vapor lock? Vapor lock is caused by excessive heat bring fuel to it's boiling point, and is an obsolete problem). Clearly, the engine HEAT can cause the carmalization, no different than cooking sugar to make candy. But in all modern vehicles, including today's Apex, the fuel will be filtered of ALL sugar, long before it could be heated enough to carmelize and solidify it. And if/when that happens, fuel flow stops and the engine immediately dies.
In about 40 of these claims I've handled in cars over the years, sugar in the fuel tank has never had any impact on the injectors, the valves, rings, or the oil....it simply can't get that far through the system. Standard procedure for sugar in the gas tank is to drop the tank and have it thoroughly cleaned, remove fuel lines up to the fuel filter, replace the filter, flush the removed fuel line, and sometimes replace the in-tank fuel pump as it may have sucked up some granules and done some mechanical damage. End of claim. These procedures were put out and approved by the ASE, ICAR, and NICB organizations.
Want to prove this for yourself? Put a teaspoon of sugar into a glass jar of gasoline and shake it up. It will not dissolve...never. It just falls to the bottom of the fuel like sand and stays granular the whole time...it will never "carmelize" as the myth perpetuates.
One of my former supervisors has a baby-food jar full of this stuff sitting on his desk now for years (since at least 1993, when I first met him) as a training tool...it looks the same as the day he created it, and gets shaken up no less than weekly.
The apex here in question has valve/compression complaints. Sugar in the fuel could never cause these problems given the fuel system setup that the Apex has.
Sugar in the oil? Maybe. That would carmelize/thicken and could impact valve function and compression. Would also plug up the oil pump and bring oil pressure down to zero, making this engine nothing but history in VERY short time. Plus...find me a vandal who is savvy enough to get into a locked, enclosed trailer, pull the hood and right side panel off an Apex, disconnect the dip stick wire, pull the dipstick, add sugar to the oil tank, and then reassemble it all properly and relock the trailer so the tampering wasn't detected. Oh crap. I just told them how to do it. But anyway...if such an intelligent vandal exists, he should be hired immediately as a dealer snowmobile mechanic!
Without EXCESSIVE heat, sugar in the gas tank will NEVER dissolve or carmelize, and the granules are far to big to EVER get past an in-line fuel filter. Best case scenario, it falls to the bottom of the tank and sloshes around in there harmlessly for years like sand, never causing a problem. Worst case scenario, it plugs up the fuel inlet screen after allowing some of the fine granules through to the fuel filter, which then stops fuel flow stalling the engine no different than a plugged fuel filter.
Note the above quote he was referring to a timeframe of his experience between 1963 and 1970...these were carb'd cars with fuel filters in the engine compartment, usually sitting right smack on top of the hot engine bolted to the carb and steel (heat-sink) fuel lines...and long before in-line fuel filters were commonly located OUTSIDE of the engine compartment as they are today. I don't question his experience too much, because in those old vehicles, the fuel often gets VERY heated up long before it is filtered (anyone here old enough to remember vapor lock? Vapor lock is caused by excessive heat bring fuel to it's boiling point, and is an obsolete problem). Clearly, the engine HEAT can cause the carmalization, no different than cooking sugar to make candy. But in all modern vehicles, including today's Apex, the fuel will be filtered of ALL sugar, long before it could be heated enough to carmelize and solidify it. And if/when that happens, fuel flow stops and the engine immediately dies.
In about 40 of these claims I've handled in cars over the years, sugar in the fuel tank has never had any impact on the injectors, the valves, rings, or the oil....it simply can't get that far through the system. Standard procedure for sugar in the gas tank is to drop the tank and have it thoroughly cleaned, remove fuel lines up to the fuel filter, replace the filter, flush the removed fuel line, and sometimes replace the in-tank fuel pump as it may have sucked up some granules and done some mechanical damage. End of claim. These procedures were put out and approved by the ASE, ICAR, and NICB organizations.
Want to prove this for yourself? Put a teaspoon of sugar into a glass jar of gasoline and shake it up. It will not dissolve...never. It just falls to the bottom of the fuel like sand and stays granular the whole time...it will never "carmelize" as the myth perpetuates.
One of my former supervisors has a baby-food jar full of this stuff sitting on his desk now for years (since at least 1993, when I first met him) as a training tool...it looks the same as the day he created it, and gets shaken up no less than weekly.
The apex here in question has valve/compression complaints. Sugar in the fuel could never cause these problems given the fuel system setup that the Apex has.
Sugar in the oil? Maybe. That would carmelize/thicken and could impact valve function and compression. Would also plug up the oil pump and bring oil pressure down to zero, making this engine nothing but history in VERY short time. Plus...find me a vandal who is savvy enough to get into a locked, enclosed trailer, pull the hood and right side panel off an Apex, disconnect the dip stick wire, pull the dipstick, add sugar to the oil tank, and then reassemble it all properly and relock the trailer so the tampering wasn't detected. Oh crap. I just told them how to do it. But anyway...if such an intelligent vandal exists, he should be hired immediately as a dealer snowmobile mechanic!
