Sub-Frame Concerns

[SledFreak]

Not all new sleds have a subframe though. For instance the Apex and the IQ chassis from Polaris do not have a subframe too bend. So I agree that the Ski Doo and Nytros have subframe problems, but not all new sleds.... 8

A buddy has a 700 dragon, and his bulkhead cracked, for no apparent reason. But he probably hit something and didn't know it.

Sh*t happens.

Exactly, I think this subframe thing is way blown out since the 09's + received the updated subframe. I beat the crap out of mine and it's straight and my dealer says they have never had a claim for it. I had a REV 800 and there where many stories of the front nun braking on them, but I never did and my dealer never had any. The internet makes it worse then what it is.

 

[revster]

Not all new sleds have a subframe though. For instance the Apex and the IQ chassis from Polaris do not have a subframe too bend. So I agree that the Ski Doo and Nytros have subframe problems, but not all new sleds.... 8

A buddy has a 700 dragon, and his bulkhead cracked, for no apparent reason. But he probably hit something and didn't know it.

Sh*t happens.

Exactly, I think this subframe thing is way blown out since the 09's + received the updated subframe. I beat the crap out of mine and it's straight and my dealer says they have never had a claim for it. I had a REV 800 and there where many stories of the front nun braking on them, but I never did and my dealer never had any. The internet makes it worse then what it is.

I have to agree on the Rev thing. THere was tons of talk about the twisting NUN on a Rev however we had about 10 revs in our group and none of them ever had a twisted NUN....and we aren't trail riders (Two of us had 440 bracing)

My subframe is at the welder right now getting grizztracks braces welded in then I'm just going to ride it and not think about it.

 

[larrypolaris]

Last tip of the season last year I was driving real slow climbing a small burm and hit something. Man I was bearly moving. Well now my LH shock is off center rearward in the A arm. Something is bent. Either the lower A arm of subframe. I'll find out mid-September. Thats when the snowmobile wrenches start coming out.

 

[sleddingfarmer]

Last tip of the season last year I was driving real slow climbing a small burm and hit something. Man I was bearly moving. Well now my LH shock is off center rearward in the A arm. Something is bent. Either the lower A arm of subframe. I'll find out mid-September. Thats when the snowmobile wrenches start coming out.

Sounds a lot like most of the bent subframe stories. I've hit something so hard it bent a brand new carbide right in half, folded it right over... but didn't bend the snowmobile. I did that on my 02 ski-doo too. But I also barely tapped a rock and bent a trailing arm the next time.

Usually about the beginning of november is when we start wrenching. But we're gonna have to start early this year. Gotta get the nytro set up for sea level and swap the track back, new a-arm bushings, ball joints, install a header pipe. My sisters sx-r is getting a xtra-ten suspension, and the front right suspension is bent from a tree! Dads 600 classic won't run. XCR 440 needs some welding on the rear suspension. Other sisters '00 Vmax has a bent trailing arm too. Plus I gotta install all kinds of stuff on my new sled. Only sled that is ready to go, is the 06 nytro we're gonna sell!

 

[SledFreak]

Not all new sleds have a subframe though. For instance the Apex and the IQ chassis from Polaris do not have a subframe too bend. So I agree that the Ski Doo and Nytros have subframe problems, but not all new sleds.... 8

A buddy has a 700 dragon, and his bulkhead cracked, for no apparent reason. But he probably hit something and didn't know it.

Sh*t happens.

Exactly, I think this subframe thing is way blown out since the 09's + received the updated subframe. I beat the crap out of mine and it's straight and my dealer says they have never had a claim for it. I had a REV 800 and there where many stories of the front nun braking on them, but I never did and my dealer never had any. The internet makes it worse then what it is.

I have to agree on the Rev thing. THere was tons of talk about the twisting NUN on a Rev however we had about 10 revs in our group and none of them ever had a twisted NUN....and we aren't trail riders (Two of us had 440 bracing)

My subframe is at the welder right now getting grizztracks braces welded in then I'm just going to ride it and not think about it.

Here's the golden question..... If you put extra support on the subframe to help with support and absorb the energy of a crash. What happens to this energy now that the subframe won't absorb it. Does it bend the actual frame instead? I'm thinking this energy will end up costing more then a subframe. Like Revster said, most of the bending from the 09 and up subframes were caused from hitting a a carbide that caught a rock in the snow, rail road track and even loading the sled on a trailer with big carbides and catching the edge of a trailer will do it. I have launched mine 10ft in the air and came down on the road, bottoming out all 4 shocks with out a mark to the subframe. This is just MO and I'm not an engineer.

 

[rlcofmn]

I ride a 08 that I have done nothing my front end and I ride dumber than 99 percent of Yamaha riders. I put on almost 2k miles of trying to destroy my sled. Now basically every component of my front end is destroyed but I have learned its strengths and weakness'.

My opinion is that it is a very stout front end just a little picky. It will take big hits all day from jumping, rough trails, ditch banging but if you hit something just right it will bend. But the thing about the steel front end is that it can be straightened a lot of times before it becomes weak. Mine on the other hand I would just leave since I ride deep snow and it did not really affect handling. So I just would wait till the next time I hit something and hope it was to the other side. I really think that a rider with a head on his shoulders would have very few problems and be able to fix them with nothing more than a pry bar.

A couple things to watch out for is catching carbides. The twisting force is what gets the sub frame so even if your going slow and you catch one it can bend. Loading on a trailer is a good example. I for one am running just wear bars now since I can't stand them digging into everything and I don't ride on ice. One other thing to note on the nytro's is don't make them fly if your shocks can't handle it. I logged a lot of air miles while tuning my evol x's and bottomed a lot of times. The nytro is very heavy sled to be bottoming. Both my lowers are bowed and I actually bent the sub frame up.

All the damages to my sled are under extreme conditions but in my opinion if you use your head a little it is a stout front end.

 

[rlcofmn]

Not all new sleds have a subframe though. For instance the Apex and the IQ chassis from Polaris do not have a subframe too bend. So I agree that the Ski Doo and Nytros have subframe problems, but not all new sleds.... 8

A buddy has a 700 dragon, and his bulkhead cracked, for no apparent reason. But he probably hit something and didn't know it.

Sh*t happens.

Exactly, I think this subframe thing is way blown out since the 09's + received the updated subframe. I beat the crap out of mine and it's straight and my dealer says they have never had a claim for it. I had a REV 800 and there where many stories of the front nun braking on them, but I never did and my dealer never had any. The internet makes it worse then what it is.

I have to agree on the Rev thing. THere was tons of talk about the twisting NUN on a Rev however we had about 10 revs in our group and none of them ever had a twisted NUN....and we aren't trail riders (Two of us had 440 bracing)

My subframe is at the welder right now getting grizztracks braces welded in then I'm just going to ride it and not think about it.

Here's the golden question..... If you put extra support on the subframe to help with support and absorb the energy of a crash. What happens to this energy now that the subframe won't absorb it. Does it bend the actual frame instead? I'm thinking this energy will end up costing more then a subframe. Like Revster said, most of the bending from the 09 and up subframes were caused from hitting a a crabide that caught a rock in the snow, rail road track and even loading on a trailer with big carbides and catching the edge of a trailer will do it. I have launched mine 10ft in the air and came down on the road, bottoming out all 4 shocks with out a mark to the subframe. This is just MO and I'm not an engineer.

I really don't think you would be able to transfer enough energy into the bulkhead to crack it unless it was a absolutely horrible crash. My sled fell over 200 vertical feet landing right on its tail. That's a lot of.energy but the only damage was in the tunnel. Those bulkheads are awesome.

 

[revster]

I think it is common to all A-arm set-up when you take a hit that send the force towards the rear things are going to bend. You could jump a 75 gap, land 3 points of contact and it will eat the force up but catch a carbide on a something at 10 mph and she's bent.

Someone needs to design something that allows the A-arms to flex rearward when an extreme force is applied then snap back into place. Kind of like the mirrors on some cars when you kick them forward they brake free then snap back into place.

I am also not an engineer but I do agree that strengthening the subframe could cause the damage elsewhere on some sleds. On the Revs adding the 440 bracing had the potential to bend the bulkhead under the primary. Then you had a much bigger problem. However I think the braces that grizztracks made for me will add strength but not enough to pass the energy on. Those mounts for the A-arms are pretty flimsy and a solid his is still going to bend them....and like rlcofmn stated those bulkheads around the engine are pretty bullet proof.

The good news is the subframe is pretty easy to pull off the sled. If a knuckle head like me can do it then anyone can. Actually maybe I should wait till I have it back on the sled before I claim victory.

 

[sleddingfarmer]

With the sub frame strengthened I think the a-arms will just bend next. People have already said they've bent the a-arms and not the subframe. A-arms would be easier to replace, so thats a good thing if you ask me.

 

[macpat]

I ride a 08 that I have done nothing my front end and I ride dumber than 99 percent of Yamaha riders. I put on almost 2k miles of trying to destroy my sled. Now basically every component of my front end is destroyed but I have learned its strengths and weakness'.

My opinion is that it is a very stout front end just a little picky. It will take big hits all day from jumping, rough trails, ditch banging but if you hit something just right it will bend. But the thing about the steel front end is that it can be straightened a lot of times before it becomes weak. Mine on the other hand I would just leave since I ride deep snow and it did not really affect handling. So I just would wait till the next time I hit something and hope it was to the other side. I really think that a rider with a head on his shoulders would have very few problems and be able to fix them with nothing more than a pry bar.

A couple things to watch out for is catching carbides. The twisting force is what gets the sub frame so even if your going slow and you catch one it can bend. Loading on a trailer is a good example. I for one am running just wear bars now since I can't stand them digging into everything and I don't ride on ice. One other thing to note on the nytro's is don't make them fly if your shocks can't handle it. I logged a lot of air miles while tuning my evol x's and bottomed a lot of times. The nytro is very heavy sled to be bottoming. Both my lowers are bowed and I actually bent the sub frame up.

All the damages to my sled are under extreme conditions but in my opinion if you use your head a little it is a stout front end.

This makes sense to me, that it would be the twisting force that would get you in relation to sub frame bending.

Questions:

1) What carbides would be good to get that would handle nice on the trail but would reduce the chances of me catching them on a trailer?

2) I asked this question already but never really got an answer. If I welded Grizz's sub frame supports to my new 2011 XTX, would I void my warrantee? Would that be considered a modification that would void warrantees. Does it make sense to wait and see if I bend my sub frame, contact Yamaha first to see if they will fix the sub frame and if they do not, get someone to bend it back and add Grizz's supports?

Thanks Guys, getting a lot of good comments!

 

[sleddingfarmer]

I don't think you would ever bend the subframe with those supports welded in there. Only way to know for certain if it will void the warranty is to talk to your dealer. Technically, you are modifying the subframe, so if yamaha doesn't warranty it, that wouldn't surprise me.

 

[grizztracks]

Yamaha has made small changes to these frames trying to correct the problem but I believe they too are a bit apprehensive about adding to much strength to the frame.

The gussets that I designed and installed will help reduce the bending that occurs to the a-arm mounting points within the subframe. If the frame takes a hard hit it should still be able to absorb the energy and bend in other areas before doing extensive damage elsewhere. After studying two bent frames and comparing them to a new 2010 frame I determined that the rear lower mount does not provide adequate support due to it's height and how the upper portion is tied back into the frame through the steering pivot bolt. I believe when the sled experiences a single sided impact the mount rotates around the steering pivot bolt flexing the mount and causing the lower plate to buckle diagonally. The new center gusset plate helps prevent the rotation by adding support closer to the a-arm mounting points.

I'm glad that some Nytro owners have not had a problem with their subframe (yet) but that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist. Yamaha didn't come out with updates because the internet has blown it out of proportion and I certainly did not change out frames because I had spare money to give them.

 

[Yamadooed]

I'm waiting for a part# to order a 2011 subframe ( not that theirs anything wrong with the other krappy ones)

 

[eightpilot]

With the sub frame strengthened I think the a-arms will just bend next. People have already said they've bent the a-arms and not the subframe. A-arms would be easier to replace, so thats a good thing if you ask me.

Exactly. That is why the apex design is better in my opinion. Make the bulkhead strong and then the weak link is the a-arms. Much cheaper and easier to replace.

 

[dox06]

Subframe

I am currently in the process of changing out my subframe due to the bottom plate bending. I went round and round with Yamaha about how the subframe bent. They told me that Yamaha does not have a subframe problem and, "My subframe is the only subframe they were aware has bent."

Anyways. I ordered my subframe up through Port and talked with Kevin for awhile on the phone. The new subframe I got is the updated 2011 subframe. Not alot of changes from my 09, that I can see.

I will post pics of my bent 09 in comparison to the new 11. (Unfortunately I leave for Quantico later today for a week long school and will not be able to post pics until next weekend, sorry)