Geminijoe
Newbie
I have a 2006 fuel injected Apex with an MPI stage 2 super charger (sled was mine from new, very low miles, put in charger 2 seasons ago. have not been able to start since beginning of last season)
ran when we put it away for summer (again has not been able to run/start since beginning of last season)
what i have done so far.
Changed plugs (several times)
drained C14 and replaced with 94oct (just to try to start it, not run on it!) (please note the c14 was left in it when it was put away and have not been able to start since!)
checked fuel pump working fine
checked injectors working fine (took the fuel rail off and aimed it up in the shop and fired fuel all over place)
checked spark and timing both fine (took plugs out and laid them on the block shut lights of and watched for spark at each plug)
took charger controller (piggy back style) and unplugged it and plugged the OEM brain back in and still no start.
now here's where it gets interesting:
the oil tank is full to the top where even removing dipstick it pours all over the place (and i think it smells a little like fuel)
the crankcase breather when trying to start pushes a lot of air out (can not even hold it back with finger over it) and smells like fuel
took a compression gauge this weekend and with all four plugs removed get about 40-45 psi across the board, have not done a leakdown yet because i did not have one (just bought one and will try it (unfortunately the sled is not at my house but up at the camp)
What can it be and why?? (sled ran when put up)
rings? valves? something to do with injectors? anything else (why all 4 cyl all of a sudden)
as you can see i know my way around a shop, But i am traditionally a 2 stroke guy (been racing for years). I think i can pull the motor but it seams like one !@#$% of a job and I don't want to do all that if it can be something else
thank you
Joe
ran when we put it away for summer (again has not been able to run/start since beginning of last season)
what i have done so far.
Changed plugs (several times)
drained C14 and replaced with 94oct (just to try to start it, not run on it!) (please note the c14 was left in it when it was put away and have not been able to start since!)
checked fuel pump working fine
checked injectors working fine (took the fuel rail off and aimed it up in the shop and fired fuel all over place)
checked spark and timing both fine (took plugs out and laid them on the block shut lights of and watched for spark at each plug)
took charger controller (piggy back style) and unplugged it and plugged the OEM brain back in and still no start.
now here's where it gets interesting:
the oil tank is full to the top where even removing dipstick it pours all over the place (and i think it smells a little like fuel)
the crankcase breather when trying to start pushes a lot of air out (can not even hold it back with finger over it) and smells like fuel
took a compression gauge this weekend and with all four plugs removed get about 40-45 psi across the board, have not done a leakdown yet because i did not have one (just bought one and will try it (unfortunately the sled is not at my house but up at the camp)
What can it be and why?? (sled ran when put up)
rings? valves? something to do with injectors? anything else (why all 4 cyl all of a sudden)
as you can see i know my way around a shop, But i am traditionally a 2 stroke guy (been racing for years). I think i can pull the motor but it seams like one !@#$% of a job and I don't want to do all that if it can be something else
thank you
Joe
Sounds like your injectors are leaking or stuck open, you should take them out and have them tested.
Geminijoe
Newbie
what about comp. being so low? wouldn't a bad injector just make it run poorly but still start.
kinger
VIP Member
If your leaky injector leaked into the crank case and then while you turned it over it washed the cylinders with fuel and the compression will be very low, add small amount of oil to each cylinders and try it and it will probably go back up.
Drain the oil before doing anything else. If you filled the entire motor with fuel you need to evacuate all that and then refill with fresh and try it again.
Drain the oil before doing anything else. If you filled the entire motor with fuel you need to evacuate all that and then refill with fresh and try it again.
Geminijoe
Newbie
it does not even make an attempt to start,
looked in repair manual and it says comp should be 210lbs
also says if you add a drop or 2 of oil and it goes up "piston rings damaged worn, replace"
it just doesn't make much sense to me (but willing to try anything short of pulling motor and replacing rings, look like a huge ordeal/job)
anything else I should be looking into?
How do you check injectors? and am i correct that it would still start but just run very poorly?
looked in repair manual and it says comp should be 210lbs
also says if you add a drop or 2 of oil and it goes up "piston rings damaged worn, replace"
it just doesn't make much sense to me (but willing to try anything short of pulling motor and replacing rings, look like a huge ordeal/job)
anything else I should be looking into?
How do you check injectors? and am i correct that it would still start but just run very poorly?
kinger
VIP Member
With the compression even across all cylinders its ok yet, I have had this before as well the only real true gauge of compression is after its warmed up and had some load on it (ie not just running in the garage) Its not uncommon for these sleds to have low compression cold after sitting and quickly get back to running 210 CR after its been running.
Before you even worry about starting it you need to figure out why there is so much pressure in the crankcase if your oil tank is full and fuel is coming out of the crancase vent something else is horribly wrong and I would not attempt to start it until you get it all drained and make sure you have the proper amount of oil in it.
If you do in fact have a leaky injector after you refill the sled with new oil you will have a small window to start the sled before it floods the crankcase again and your correct it will then possibly run rough.
You said you removed the fuel rail and it sprayed fuel all over? Just by turning the key but not cranking? I dont think they should leak when you turn the key and the fuel system primes (build pressure in the line before cranking). If you turn the key and they all open and spray without cranking that would be something we need to make sure is correct, it wouldn't make sense to me to have the injectors flood the engine before cranking but I honestly dont know if that is what it does or not. If its not supposed to then maybe you have a pinched wired causing all the injectors to be full open?
If the motor continues to flood you will never get it started. Find out if you do have fuel in the oil that is first I would try to start if that is the case. You will do a lot more damage if the crank and everything is sitting in fuel and trying to run.
Before you even worry about starting it you need to figure out why there is so much pressure in the crankcase if your oil tank is full and fuel is coming out of the crancase vent something else is horribly wrong and I would not attempt to start it until you get it all drained and make sure you have the proper amount of oil in it.
If you do in fact have a leaky injector after you refill the sled with new oil you will have a small window to start the sled before it floods the crankcase again and your correct it will then possibly run rough.
You said you removed the fuel rail and it sprayed fuel all over? Just by turning the key but not cranking? I dont think they should leak when you turn the key and the fuel system primes (build pressure in the line before cranking). If you turn the key and they all open and spray without cranking that would be something we need to make sure is correct, it wouldn't make sense to me to have the injectors flood the engine before cranking but I honestly dont know if that is what it does or not. If its not supposed to then maybe you have a pinched wired causing all the injectors to be full open?
If the motor continues to flood you will never get it started. Find out if you do have fuel in the oil that is first I would try to start if that is the case. You will do a lot more damage if the crank and everything is sitting in fuel and trying to run.
Geminijoe
Newbie
misunderstood
I pulled rail off motor flipped it up and cranked motor that's when they sprayed (did this last season not this one)
I will try draining oil and refill to correct amount this weekend.
I intend also to perform a leakdown test (any advise on how to perform this, all plugs out? do i drip some oil in cyl first to try to make better ring seal then it currently has? and does it matter if the piston is TDC on compression stroke or exhaust stroke?)
I pulled rail off motor flipped it up and cranked motor that's when they sprayed (did this last season not this one)
I will try draining oil and refill to correct amount this weekend.
I intend also to perform a leakdown test (any advise on how to perform this, all plugs out? do i drip some oil in cyl first to try to make better ring seal then it currently has? and does it matter if the piston is TDC on compression stroke or exhaust stroke?)
kinger
VIP Member
The leakdown test is a PITA I would do it after you figure out the cause of whats in the oil.
The leakdown doesn't matter as long as the valves are closed.
The leakdown doesn't matter as long as the valves are closed.
Buckeye
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Gas in oil
You need to figure what is wrong with the injectors before going through all the trouble and expense of changing the oil. If you don't correct that problem first you will just fill the new oil with gas again. I had a similar problem with my carbs and until i adjusted 2 of the floats. The fuel pump just pushed fuel through the needle valves into the engine flooding the crankcase and oil tank until the motor wouldn't run any more. Or start once full.
i am sure your injectors shouldn't be spraying fuel if the engine isn't cranking or running and it was probably pushing too much fuel when it was running.
Good luck!
You need to figure what is wrong with the injectors before going through all the trouble and expense of changing the oil. If you don't correct that problem first you will just fill the new oil with gas again. I had a similar problem with my carbs and until i adjusted 2 of the floats. The fuel pump just pushed fuel through the needle valves into the engine flooding the crankcase and oil tank until the motor wouldn't run any more. Or start once full.
i am sure your injectors shouldn't be spraying fuel if the engine isn't cranking or running and it was probably pushing too much fuel when it was running.
Good luck!
exhorseman
Newbie
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sounds like to me its the stator
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Saskapex
Newbie
Your compression is likely low due to the fact that your cylinder walls are all washed down from all the fuel that has gone through it. Have you been cranking it an excessive amount? It's possible that the original problem was fouled plugs and if you kept cranking it and it kept spraying in fuel without firing and washed down the cylinders even if you did change plugs it's not gonna fire if there is no compression. I would start by changing the oil because all that fuel isn't good for bearings and then pull plugs and pour a bit of oil in each hole to hopefully bring compression up and put new plugs in it and try it. Can't hurt!
Geminijoe
Newbie
Here is where I am at now,
under direction of someone that had similar problem, thinking that because the race fuel was left in during off season the rings (all of them) got gummed up and stuck in the ring-land groove making little to no compression.
in an effort to get them loosened up (without taking motor out, last ditch effort) i soaked it with seafoam and marvel mystery oil, turned crank by hand sever times and left if for a day.
checked compression again and it went from 30-40 up to 110-120ish
blew out most of the oil out of cyl, put new plugs and and tried to start it, it made an attempt or two and went back to not attempting to turn over, pulled plugs (soaked wih oil and fuel) cleaned them up and put back in gain made attempt to start for a cycle or tow then back to nothing, cleaned plugs again and re installed. this time made an attempt again and stopped at this time i fig what the #$%^ and gave it some throttle (about half) and it started (not all all cyl, maybe 2) held it at about 1200rpm figuring putting some heat in motor can only help. then i noticed that there was oil leaking from below the motor (not sure if i blew a seal down below from putting compression down into case from the rings not being seated!! any ideas?)
as soon as let of throttle it idles (not well) for about a minute then stales. pulled plugs again and they are not wet but dry/black (almost like soot) changed plugs again and still same as above!
checked compression again and it is still in the very low 100's
Poured more snake-oil in cyl and left it (its at my camp). any ideas what to try next (short of pulling motor and getting into it to change rings)?
BTW sled has on 780 miles on it
under direction of someone that had similar problem, thinking that because the race fuel was left in during off season the rings (all of them) got gummed up and stuck in the ring-land groove making little to no compression.
in an effort to get them loosened up (without taking motor out, last ditch effort) i soaked it with seafoam and marvel mystery oil, turned crank by hand sever times and left if for a day.
checked compression again and it went from 30-40 up to 110-120ish
blew out most of the oil out of cyl, put new plugs and and tried to start it, it made an attempt or two and went back to not attempting to turn over, pulled plugs (soaked wih oil and fuel) cleaned them up and put back in gain made attempt to start for a cycle or tow then back to nothing, cleaned plugs again and re installed. this time made an attempt again and stopped at this time i fig what the #$%^ and gave it some throttle (about half) and it started (not all all cyl, maybe 2) held it at about 1200rpm figuring putting some heat in motor can only help. then i noticed that there was oil leaking from below the motor (not sure if i blew a seal down below from putting compression down into case from the rings not being seated!! any ideas?)
as soon as let of throttle it idles (not well) for about a minute then stales. pulled plugs again and they are not wet but dry/black (almost like soot) changed plugs again and still same as above!
checked compression again and it is still in the very low 100's
Poured more snake-oil in cyl and left it (its at my camp). any ideas what to try next (short of pulling motor and getting into it to change rings)?
BTW sled has on 780 miles on it
After talking to you the other day I did a little reseach and found omc or mercury marine makes a product the works well with piston ring carbon and rust see what you can find.
87gtNOS
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machzed said:
even Yamaha sells ringfree....or Merc...or use seafoam, or the others similar...
nate007
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2. '04 Redline Revolt 800
3. '09 Nytro XTX - twin screw
Sounds like you have a perfect storm of fuel issues.
If you got the compression issue figured out and have the issue with it stalling, it sounds to me like you've got injectors sticking open, especially if you said they shot fuel all over the place.
Try taking the fuel rail loose again and put some small cups or spray can lids or something under the injectors to catch the fuel. There's not much science to this, but try catching as much fuel while cranking the sled over, without spilling any. Carefully watch to at least the spray pattern is consistant across all the injectors. Then after cranking, check to see if there's the same ammount of fuel in each container. Use your judgement based on how long you cranked it over (I'd try a number of times totalling approx 1 minute) and see if you think it's an unusually large ammount of fuel or if it seems to not be enough. I couldnt find a volume ammount or bench test method, so this would be crude at best, but it's better than nothing..
If the ammounts are different in each container, and one has alot more in it, you may have a nozzle stuck open. You should be able to tell by looking at all of them while cranking if there's one or more that are spraying differenly.
My thought is that you might have more than you think you should in each container, which would be rich, and explaining why holding the throttle open will start it, and why it dies after idling badly. I would check the fuel pressure regulator, or swap it with a known good one or new one just to eliminate that variable.
If your injectors are the culprit, you're not likely to get much improvement out of any off the shelf "snake-oil" cleaners. Take them to a fuel injection shop and have them ultrasonicly cleaned. Any EFI or injection shop can do this, and it'd be far cheaper than buying new ones. Contrary to popular belief, injectors no not wear out! They simply get dirty, or corroded, or other issues from an outside source. They are designed to last for nearly 75 trillion cycles, which in a car application would be approximately 375,000 miles. Having a shop simply clean them and flow test them for around $20~30 a piece will bring them back to new condition. If your sled has sat for a long time, regardless of what gas you had in it, clogged or stuck injectors and/or regulator is my vote.
If you got the compression issue figured out and have the issue with it stalling, it sounds to me like you've got injectors sticking open, especially if you said they shot fuel all over the place.
Try taking the fuel rail loose again and put some small cups or spray can lids or something under the injectors to catch the fuel. There's not much science to this, but try catching as much fuel while cranking the sled over, without spilling any. Carefully watch to at least the spray pattern is consistant across all the injectors. Then after cranking, check to see if there's the same ammount of fuel in each container. Use your judgement based on how long you cranked it over (I'd try a number of times totalling approx 1 minute) and see if you think it's an unusually large ammount of fuel or if it seems to not be enough. I couldnt find a volume ammount or bench test method, so this would be crude at best, but it's better than nothing..
If the ammounts are different in each container, and one has alot more in it, you may have a nozzle stuck open. You should be able to tell by looking at all of them while cranking if there's one or more that are spraying differenly.
My thought is that you might have more than you think you should in each container, which would be rich, and explaining why holding the throttle open will start it, and why it dies after idling badly. I would check the fuel pressure regulator, or swap it with a known good one or new one just to eliminate that variable.
If your injectors are the culprit, you're not likely to get much improvement out of any off the shelf "snake-oil" cleaners. Take them to a fuel injection shop and have them ultrasonicly cleaned. Any EFI or injection shop can do this, and it'd be far cheaper than buying new ones. Contrary to popular belief, injectors no not wear out! They simply get dirty, or corroded, or other issues from an outside source. They are designed to last for nearly 75 trillion cycles, which in a car application would be approximately 375,000 miles. Having a shop simply clean them and flow test them for around $20~30 a piece will bring them back to new condition. If your sled has sat for a long time, regardless of what gas you had in it, clogged or stuck injectors and/or regulator is my vote.
