Team Primary on Winder secondary mocked up

[KnappAttack]

hey mike is the dalton black /lime new ? also whats the recommend starting degrees 3-3 ?

Dalton Black/Lime is an old Cat torsional spring, has lots of side pressure to hold the belt, backshift and bring the belt to the top of the primary like its supposed to. Generally set around 0-1 because of different tang placement. 0-1 will get you about 24.5# twist force on Purple EPI cat spring. Dalton should be similar. Lots of the high HP Apex guys run the Cat Sno-Pro green as well as the EPI purple, which would be the equal to a Dalton Cat white. The Black/Lime has about 15 lbs more side pressure than that Dalton white one. These Cat springs are .207" wire so not too much torsion, but more side pressure for belt grip. The Yamaha springs are .216" - .236" wire and torsion forces get to be fairly high as it rotates around the helix in high gear. These Cat springs also won't coil bind with just four coils either. More side pressure up top is what I'm after to hold the belt, as well as make the clutching more lively with heavy weights for big tunes.

Thanks for all your work on this, Mike. It’s great information for all of us.

To combine this with another thread going on right now, what are your thoughts on a Team primary vs. a primary off an Apex?

IMO Apex primary isn't going to be much if any better on the 3 cylinder winder. The harmonics on the 998 kills the small roller bushings in no time. If the roller bushings go bad and don't get caught in time things happen fast. I also believe certain weights are breaking and/or rolling off the rollers when bushing goes bad in roller. Speaking today with Dale Toole from Dalton Ind. also believes when the weight or roller starts running at angles with worn bushings etc. it puts a strain on the sheave and bad stuff happens. I'd tend to think this accurate.

Lots of people just ride and don't even look at their clutches let alone inspect them properly.

 

[KnappAttack]

Lot of people PM'ing me about the offset on this Team setup on winder driven. I'm going to caution you that changing centers, belt brand, belt width and length is going to change the offset you want. I ended up with 62.95mm offset with belt lined up at full shift using the Cat 104 belt, and that is not the belt I plan to run with this setup either, so that offset will change for a different belt. I'm thinking I will use a Cat 112 belt or possibly the XS827 or XS829, so the number is going to change for me, may not be much, but certain it will change some before finalized.

I ordered all the stuff I needed from Dalton today to finalize this Team package. Of course I needed a new puller, weights, springs, and belts. Should have everything I need for testing except snow yet. Fingers crossed winter will show up yet for us!

 

[YukonMP]

It is very generous of you to share all of this and to take the time to organize and present the information. Your passion is apparent. Hope you get some snow so you can get some seat time for all of your efforts. Best in the New Year to you.

 

[Crossfire12]

Those weights and rollers are wide, I have AC, 1700 miles on sled 270r , rollers still good, same belt, still spec but new belt put on 112, the weights should not tilt to one side , I had 900 2 stroke had to change weight bushing every 500 miles cause weights started to tilt from wear, wrecking rollers.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Nice work KA!
Thanks for sharing this.
Looks like a fun and informative project, look forward to seeing your progress!

 

[journeyman]

Lot of people PM'ing me about the offset on this Team setup on winder driven. I'm going to caution you that changing centers, belt brand, belt width and length is going to change the offset you want. I ended up with 62.95mm offset with belt lined up at full shift using the Cat 104 belt, and that is not the belt I plan to run with this setup either, so that offset will change for a different belt. I'm thinking I will use a Cat 112 belt or possibly the XS827 or XS829, so the number is going to change for me, may not be much, but certain it will change some before finalized.

I ordered all the stuff I needed from Dalton today to finalize this Team package. Of course I needed a new puller, weights, springs, and belts. Should have everything I need for testing except snow yet. Fingers crossed winter will show up yet for us!

Not sure if we will get any snow around our parts any time soon. Looks like heading north is the only option for now.

 

[KnappAttack]

Hopeful that it will benefit all that want to run the team.

It is my opinion that the Yamaha primary is fine if the owner keeps a close eye on the roller bushings, arm bushings etc. I feel the roller bushings do not last long at all with the weight needed for the big tunes on the Yamaha primary and there is a huge need for this Team sized roller for longevity of the bushings life.

I’m going to try some different things on the Yamaha clutches for testing purposes first that should pay dividends when making the Team primary swap. More info to come, but I want a better calibration than we’ve been running on the Yamaha setup too. I don’t feel the Yamaha recipe most are running is there yet either or to my liking anyway.

 

[SideHogger]

Hurricane stub shaft, thunder cover? Anyone running this combo? Thinking these two would surely help. Your 2 cents Mr. Knapp?

 

[fatchance]

Looking at the pics of the failures, changing the cover isn't going to help where the weights are flying out of the movable sheave, or help with the premature roller wearing.

 

[KnappAttack]

Hurricane stub shaft, thunder cover? Anyone running this combo? Thinking these two would surely help. Your 2 cents Mr. Knapp?

My Opinion. Stub shaft in theory should help, but they are on back order right now. We won't know until people get miles on them if increases the roller bushing, clutch and belt life. I think the added weight with the stub shaft only helps smooth and diminish the hammering and harmonics of the three cylinder four stroke. IMO its what is need for more flywheel effect here and clutch cushioning. Crank needs that flywheel weight IMO.


The cover on a Yamaha primary is fine and showing no ill effects as it is. Its plenty stout as designed and is not coming apart or the reason for Yamaha clutches breaking where they have been breaking. I think it to be a complete waste of $$ on a Yamaha primary.

A billet cover for the Team doesn't look like a bad idea when you see the pictures of where its cracking on the Team cover now, but if you look at how the Team is balanced with the holes in the factory cover, be prepared to re-balance it as an assembly if changing that cover. the other thing I think about is how are these being assembled by the guy throwing them together after changing out weights and springs? Is that cover getting tweaked as the guy in his garage is bolting it together improperly having the cover cocked to one side? Lots of unknowns here. I've seen lots of hacks out there working on stuff that self inflict their own problems.

What I know is MOST people are having no problems with either the Yamaha or the Team. What I know for myself is I'm on my third set of rollers in just 2300 miles on the Yamaha primary, tuned since about 650 miles. That equates to a set of rollers about every 550 miles tuned and unacceptable to me, so thats where my problem lies is roller bushing life on the three cylinder Yamaha's poor harmonics. I'm trying to make something that will last, at a reasonable cost for all to run, that has decent life expectancy.

I have to believe we should be doing better than 300 miles per belt and 600 miles per roller set. at that rate its going to break you! The Cat guys aren't having all these problems with belts and rollers, so I'll try that Team.

As for the couple of pictures floating around with cracked covers and blown Teams, well it is yet to be determined the cause, but I'd wager its the owner or guy putting it together improperly causing the failure. It seems most of the time it is. Also, lots of these Cat guys are removing the spider an clearancing the buttons to make them slide easier or re-shiming the spider. Why add more clearance just so it slides easier? The Team has rubber o-rings behind the buttons so It stays quiet. Who's to say they are not doing damage when doing this? There is a reason Cat offers no replacement parts for it. They don't want people taking them apart like that! Spider Tq. is critical with proper tools to prevent breakage of pieces. Most people use tools not designed for this or don't have the knowledge on proper disassembly or assembly. What a nightmare to try and control, so they offer a complete replacement clutch. One thing seems clear to me, the Team has what appears to be a better piece. My opinion could change there, we'll see after I put some miles on it. I have always liked to try things for myself so I have the data firsthand. Too much speculation and unknowns letting someone else do it.

 

[SideHogger]

Looking at the pics of the failures, changing the cover isn't going to help where the weights are flying out of the movable sheave, or help with the premature roller wearing.

Agree, but with the addition of the hurricane stub shaft, gotta be better than stock.

 

[SideHogger]

My Opinion. Stub shaft in theory should help, but they are on back order right now. We won't know until people get miles on them if increases the roller bushing, clutch and belt life. I think the added weight with the stub shaft only helps smooth and diminish the hammering and harmonics of the three cylinder four stroke. IMO its what is need for more flywheel effect here and clutch cushioning. Crank needs that flywheel weight IMO.


The cover on a Yamaha primary is fine and showing no ill effects as it is. Its plenty stout as designed and is not coming apart or the reason for Yamaha clutches breaking where they have been breaking. I think it to be a complete waste of $$ on a Yamaha primary.

A billet cover for the Team doesn't look like a bad idea when you see the pictures of where its cracking on the Team cover now, but if you look at how the Team is balanced with the holes in the factory cover, be prepared to re-balance it as an assembly if changing that cover. the other thing I think about is how are these being assembled by the guy throwing them together after changing out weights and springs? Is that cover getting tweaked as the guy in his garage is bolting it together improperly having the cover cocked to one side? Lots of unknowns here. I've seen lots of hacks out there working on stuff that self inflict their own problems.

What I know is MOST people are having no problems with either the Yamaha or the Team. What I know for myself is I'm on my third set of rollers in just 2300 miles on the Yamaha primary, tuned since about 650 miles. That equates to a set of rollers about every 550 miles tuned and unacceptable to me, so thats where my problem lies is roller bushing life on the three cylinder Yamaha's poor harmonics. I'm trying to make something that will last, at a reasonable cost for all to run, that has decent life expectancy.

I have to believe we should be doing better than 300 miles per belt and 600 miles per roller set. at that rate its going to break you! The Cat guys aren't having all these problems with belts and rollers, so I'll try that Team.

As for the couple of pictures floating around with cracked covers and blown Teams, well it is yet to be determined the cause, but I'd wager its the owner or guy putting it together improperly causing the failure. It seems most of the time it is. Also, lots of these Cat guys are removing the spider an clearancing the buttons to make them slide easier or re-shiming the spider. Why add more clearance just so it slides easier? The Team has rubber o-rings behind the buttons so It stays quiet. Who's to say they are not doing damage when doing this? There is a reason Cat offers no replacement parts for it. They don't want people taking them apart like that! Spider Tq. is critical with proper tools to prevent breakage of pieces. Most people use tools not designed for this or don't have the knowledge on proper disassembly or assembly. What a nightmare to try and control, so they offer a complete replacement clutch. One thing seems clear to me, the Team has what appears to be a better piece. My opinion could change there, we'll see after I put some miles on it. I have always liked to try things for myself so I have the data firsthand. Too much speculation and unknowns letting someone else do it.

Thanks for replying. Going to garage now and pulling clutch to see how it looks. Unlike most others on here, I have D&D flash and clutch kit. Their weights and helix. So far sled running well and only one blown belt in 1000 miles.

 

[KnappAttack]

Thanks for replying. Going to garage now and pulling clutch to see how it looks. Unlike most others on here, I have D&D flash and clutch kit. Their weights and helix. So far sled running well and only one blown belt in 1000 miles.

You can also just have a look as it sits on the engine. Make sure the rollers don't have excessive play up or down or side to side, weight bushing all tight ect. Also look for cracks at the post area from post outward and cracks at set screw area too.

 

[journeyman]

All I can say is this is great stuff!! I am glad you are researching this issue with the big tunes. I can't say enough for the guys that have a passion for this stuff, it helps the rest of us out in the long run. This will help me decide in the future where I want to go with mine. For now I will ride it stock so I have a reference point in my mind.

 

[1049triple]

Dalton Black/Lime is an old Cat torsional spring, has lots of side pressure to hold the belt, backshift and bring the belt to the top of the primary like its supposed to. Generally set around 0-1 because of different tang placement. 0-1 will get you about 24.5# twist force on Purple EPI cat spring. Dalton should be similar. Lots of the high HP Apex guys run the Cat Sno-Pro green as well as the EPI purple, which would be the equal to a Dalton Cat white. The Black/Lime has about 15 lbs more side pressure than that Dalton white one. These Cat springs are .207" wire so not too much torsion, but more side pressure for belt grip. The Yamaha springs are .216" - .236" wire and torsion forces get to be fairly high as it rotates around the helix in high gear. These Cat springs also won't coil bind with just four coils either. More side pressure up top is what I'm after to hold the belt, as well as make the clutching more lively with heavy weights for big tunes.


How does the Yamaha EPI purple compare to the CAT EPI purple you are talking about?