Team Primary on Winder secondary mocked up

[journeyman]

Measure cracking pressure with a vise grip attached to the driven with a rubber pad under it, then use a fish scale with on the sheave edge.

Guys doing heavier driven springs, old Cat trick that works just as well on Yamaha, put a roll of duct tape on the ground and use your knees to grip the outside of the driven, installing heavy springs is an easy one man job this way.

These higher side pressure springs bring the belt back to the top of the driven like it should and take the ballooning out of the belt. I'm also trying the 8DN this weekend and it too allows it to backshift better with the higher side pressure springs. Throttle response and belt grip in the secondary will be MUCH better. I have a hunch we have been running too light of side pressure in the winders and needing that low angle helix to compensate. My feeling is the lighter driven like the B/O is fine for ice or road running but not enough side force for trail or snow use.

Good info Mike!!

Yep, done the vice grip/fish scale many times!

Good luck on the testing! Gotta get all that power to the ground.

 

[johan]

Measure cracking pressure with a vise grip attached to the driven with a rubber pad under it, then use a fish scale with on the sheave edge.

Guys doing heavier driven springs, old Cat trick that works just as well on Yamaha, put a roll of duct tape on the ground and use your knees to grip the outside of the driven, installing heavy springs is an easy one man job this way.

These higher side pressure springs bring the belt back to the top of the driven like it should and take the ballooning out of the belt. I'm also trying the 8DN this weekend and it too allows it to backshift better with the higher side pressure springs. Throttle response and belt grip in the secondary will be MUCH better. I have a hunch we have been running too light of side pressure in the winders and needing that low angle helix to compensate. My feeling is the lighter driven like the B/O is fine for ice or road running but not enough side force for trail or snow use.

I have done the same on my boosted 270+ viper, I have 40degree roller helix with the tp orange at 70degree at the moment had 60 before. It works really good with really good backshift and i dont blow belts either. Epi Purple or cat green should work really good to but i think you need to go to 42 to 45 helix for the green one its a nasty spring

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Most of us doo guys have been checking backpressure for yrs in this manner....

This is a few yr old video, my 1200 doo....same theory for any secondary checking tension, just helps gives apples to apples when comparing from one to another. You can do it two ways, use a 'break' and 'return' measurement and then take the average reading, or just use the 'break' reading which will be higher ofcourse, so long as you use it apples to apples when talking about it as 'break' or 'average.'

I have had my clip for many yrs....old scale yes, but doesnt matter as long as you use same scale and setup from one clutch to the next. 16lbs(avg) is the norm for a stock doo. That would be closer to 18break.

Dan

 

[TT]

No, I plan to run right around that 41-39 start range and 37-35 finish range with Sidewinder secondary same as I would with the Yamaha primary, that really doesn't change there from just switching primaries. Also plan to use a heavier secondary spring with more side pressure like the Dalton Black/Lime or EPI purple which is same as Cat sno-pro green.

The Team is snug on the sliders which I like, but by no means is it tight where it won't move or pushes hard.

The EPI purple ACCS5 and AC green secondary springs have been used for along time with boosted apex and nytros mountain sled with very good results!

 

[helix]

If you want a bit of comparison to compare the yamaha spring to the cat you have to take into account a few things. You cant exactly compare or convert the numbers from some arctic chart to some numbers on a Yamaha chart and convert from kg to lbs....they are not measured at the same compressed height but it is fairly close.

Our Dalton Yamaha Chart lists Dalton (Yamaha) and factory Yam sec springs here:

http://www.daltonindustries.com/product_detail.php?product_id=293

You can see that the Dalton YBO spring is a fair bit more side pressure at first than the stock gold sidewinder secondary spring...but almost the same at full compression....the twist you can dictate with the settings you use.

The Dalton White Cat spring ( similar to green cat) is significantly heavier again . I just ran some numbers last night on this to offer assistance

Cat springs are here:
http://www.daltonindustries.com/product_detail.php?product_id=36

for instance,...Dalton White Cat torsion spring
- the first compression load test at a yamaha test height (64mm is close to 2.5" cat test) is 98 lbs (45kg) , ...the 39mm yamaha test height would have the Dalton Cat White at approx 159 which is around 73kg for a direct comparison.

if you put those numbers into the compression columns of the Dalton Yamaha chart. it shows you this spring in relation for side pressure.

....for "torsion", the Dalton White cat spring is around 11 kg at 9-1 setting


If that might help anyone.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Thanks Dale....I was wondering these exact questions, thanks for reading my mind and posting the above.

I noticed you have a NEW black/tan secondary spring now available on your site.

Can you fill us in on this new spring and its differences to the B/O many of us run now.

thanks!
Dan

 

[helix]

Hi Dan,
Lots have asked recently about how cat secondary springs may compare...I thought..." there must be something on line...because last year everyone wanted springs not so heavy...now they seem to want to compare springs that are way heavier",lol...Funny thing is, some of the same ones who thought the very soft pink (apex) in the new sidewinder SRX must be the ticket now are asking about cat springs! It keeps me entertained. Some are fully switching from what they already ordered and planned to test with and they havent even tested yet with no snow! Internet and sledheads= powerfiul. (and good for business I guess)

The YBT Black /Tan is one that we had requests for. the pressures and twist values are all there onthe page. Some people with very tall gearing and bigger power /turbos requested something like that and they seem happy with it and re-order them for others etc. Its been going out the door. Probably good for some. For most people with trail tuned sidewinders the Standard DPSS-YBO Black/orange will still be the more suitable with most of the kits out there for stock clutches, and is a far bigger selling option.

We have always had some that do it with Cat springs. Some like it, some don't, I'm sure you can make either work ...like all clutching, everyone is right in their own mind or whatever, fine with me either way. There are lots that use the Cat springs also, it may however require that you may have to re-work the whole rest of your clutch recipe a bit, so maybe dont just read half the story. Remember that clutching is the whole system and changing one part may make the rest of what you run in both clutches have different requirements. In particular with Sidewinders, since there are so many variations of tune, gearing, clutch recipes and then ..I guess primary clutches thrown into the mix.

Nice to see people keep testing though, you never know what comes from R&D. It may be just the ticket for the thing Mike is doing with the Team clutch. I'm sure he will see soon.

I just thought I would clarify the spring comparison a bit ( Cat springs to Yamaha clutch) for those interested in the experimentation of it.

 

[STAIN]

Remember that clutching is the whole system and changing one part may make the rest of what you run in both clutches have different requirements.

So true. Words everyone here should pay attention to. There is no "magic"recipe

 

[snowbeast]

I have to put it on the floor and install it with my knee. I don't have the stones to do it on the bench.

Try it on the sled,mounted on the jackshaft,if need be,have someone push the bolts back thru the holes on helix.

 

[STAIN]

Try it on the sled,mounted on the jackshaft,if need be,have someone push the bolts back thru the holes on helix.

I just do the old roll of duct tape method. Been doing that since my old Cat days. I actually set the secondary on a roll of duct tape every time I take it off now, just habit!!

 

[snowbeast]

I just do the old roll of duct tape method. Been doing that since my old Cat days. I actually set the secondary on a roll of duct tape every time I take it off now, just habit!!

Ya,i to have done it both ways.

 

[STAIN]

Question on the TEAM primary. How can you tell if the clutch is an updated one( 0746-889) or an older( 0746-875, 883) version? I don't want to buy an older take off if it going to break...…..

 

[KnappAttack]

Question on the TEAM primary. How can you tell if the clutch is an updated one( 0746-889) or an older( 0746-875, 883) version? I don't want to buy an older take off if it going to break...…..

Part number on the box it comes in.

 

[STAIN]

The ad isn't' showing a box. Is there a way to look at the clutch itself and determine if is the updated version? Is the part number stamped on the fixed sheave?
I will have to get a hold of the seller if I choose this route.

Anyone do any testing this weekend?

 

[KnappAttack]

I have all the parts I need now to install thanks to a huge box that arrived late last week from Dalton.

Just back from riding up north last week and this weekend. That damn Yamaha primary is so damn irritating with that awful rattle from 4-5000 RPM. Good lord is it awful! Will be installing the Team this week. Still, we do not have a stitch of snow on the ground here at home for testing.

What I found this weekend is I'm finally able to keep a belt on for over 300 miles with the Yamaha clutches though.

Aligned with Hurricane bar and bolted solid for zero float, used 8DN belt and EPI purple because white Dalton Cat torsion spring for more side pressure didn't make it here before I left for north. Found my top end I've been missing by using a heavier side pressure secondary spring. Pulls like a freight train now and keeps on pulling. Last season I was getting vibrations I thought was from the track vibrating from stud pattern and track ratchet. I believe now it was slippage in the driven clutch all along. I just needed more side pressure. the recipe that was working for others, wasn't working for me with stock driven springs or the black/orange. I just had too much belt slippage with the traction I had and the trail conditions I was in.

Ended up back with the 35 helix even on the Purple EPI cat spring. 41-37 was too low on RPM at the hit and R's would climb downtrack. Could have done the 39-35 but opted to go to the straight 35 angle for more response and straighten the shift out. Not that is was any faster, but trail rode better this way with better responsiveness. Overall I like the heavier side pressure driven spring.