Team Primary on Winder secondary mocked up

[KnappAttack]

So machined up my helix's today for full shift on the Team Primary.

I ordered up a couple of Dayco XTX 5060 belts and they are shorter than the the 104 Cat belt I had mocked up earlier. It changed the offset and the amount I needed to take off the helix's for full shift.

Offset lineup at full shift ended up being at 63.25mm doing it the Yamaha way with 262mm centers and the new XTX 5060 belt.

I had to machine off the helix hub face .110" and put an added .070" step inside the face to clear step on the shaft. I also had to machine off the tips of the helix ramp .070" to clear the other sheave at full shift. Tight stuff here, the rollers just sit on the ramp when installing the helix and the belt rides to the ver bottom of the angles on the secondary bottom at full shift with the XTX belt.

There is no coil bind using Dalton Black/Orange or any of the Cat torsion springs listed on my notes.

I took readings on my scale using my drill press and the driven assembled with the 41-37 helix installed at settings noted. I took the low reading just as the driven began to crack open, the high reading was taken at full shift and hub contact and then just backed off a slight bit. No idea on the height, but its the heights at which pint the spring is going to run at in actual conditions. I always check my actual spring compression myself so things make sense rather than assuming the rates and heights are accurate. Also, this takes into account the spring is also rotating along the helix, so my readings are different than the spring Mfgr.

ClutchMaster is going to like this data. The top two are Dalton Cat springs, White and Black/Lime on setting 9-1. The third on the list is the orig. Black/Orange Yamaha spring at setting 6-1. Next is the EPI purple Cat at setting 9-1. The last one is an unknown brand from my racing box. its Black/red at setting 9-1. I thought I had a Cat red/white but couldn't find it. It may be kicking around there somewhere yet. This is pretty telling data for compression figures on these springs.

 

[rnusr01]

Very cool, looking forward to the results and good luck

 

[ClutchMaster]

Wow you bet I like it! Very thorough! How do you do it in a drill press? Do you have a shaft you chuck in the drill press to hold the driven? Push the driven together then use a scale to twist the sheave?
Ingenious!
I can hardly believe that EPI purple is so much lower than the dalton white, wow!
I’m gonna have to try this with some cat springs to see what they’re at.
Nice work Knapp!

 

[ClutchMaster]

Mike,
My question is how are you figuring your offset values? I have never found a good way to too do this. The belt really needs to be very tight to see if it’s straight. Years ago I tried running different lengths/widths on belts and changing centers just to see what worked best, I failed to come up with a solid way to figure in my offset.
It always can down to “just eye it up” on the stand under acceleration. Now you’ve got my brain all scrambled, and I can’t sleep because there’s only a couple brain cells working on the issue, the rest have either died or are taking care of important functions like breathing and heart beat.

 

[KnappAttack]

Wow you bet I like it! Very thorough! How do you do it in a drill press? Do you have a shaft you chuck in the drill press to hold the driven? Push the driven together then use a scale to twist the sheave?
Ingenious!
I can hardly believe that EPI purple is so much lower than the dalton white, wow!
I’m gonna have to try this with some cat springs to see what they’re at.
Nice work Knapp!

I thought you'd like that Steve.

Scale on the table, two short pieces of 2x4 on the scale, then put driven outside down pushing on the backside of the shaft with the chuck that centers nicely inside the back of the hollow shaft. When shaft just moves take a scale reading, thats your start value, push down till it bottoms on the hub and just back off till its not on the hub and take the high reading. Obviously you are taking into account the bit of twist and the helix being used, so I used the 41-37 and 9-1 on the Cat springs, and 6-1 on the original Dalton Black/Orange.

I too was surprised at the difference between the EPI purple and the Dalton White. didn't expect that as their only supposed to be 10 lbs between them. I have 320 miles on the EPI spring though and the Daltons are brand new, but even in your hand you know the Dalton White and Black/Lime have much more side pressure. I've read or been told that the EPI looses tension fast so not sure if this is a factor or not. I want to check a Red/White and I thought I had one, but for the life of me I can't seem to find it. I know I'm not going out an buying one. I have a few more here to try from the old race spring box, but no idea on who they are made by.

Mike,
My question is how are you figuring your offset values? I have never found a good way to too do this. The belt really needs to be very tight to see if it’s straight. Years ago I tried running different lengths/widths on belts and changing centers just to see what worked best, I failed to come up with a solid way to figure in my offset.
It always can down to “just eye it up” on the stand under acceleration. Now you’ve got my brain all scrambled, and I can’t sleep because there’s only a couple brain cells working on the issue, the rest have either died or are taking care of important functions like breathing and heart beat.

I line it up a couple different ways, install the belt and line up with straight edge on the side of the secondary spaced properly and measure with caliper, I then build a go/no go gauge and double check, then move driven back and forth. Also as another verification measurement, I then move secondary back and forth and measure the gap from each side of the front of the secondary to belt where the belt leaves the sheaves. I believe it to be spot on, less than a half MM movement can be seen as out of alignment when measuring both ways. I'm confident I have it spot on and perfect for my centers and belt length at full shift.

I'm also going to set it for a few MM of float and fire it up on the stand to see the movement from engagement to full shift while watching, it should confirm I have found the proper alignment and then bolt it down solid how I will actually run it, with no or zero float. Easy Peasy! Although I know my measurements are perfect I want to see how much difference there is from the angles on the clutches changing from hi to low range. I'm guessing 1-1.5mm in change there in actual movement.

 

[ClutchMaster]

I thought you'd like that Steve.

Scale on the table, two short pieces of 2x4 on the scale, then put driven outside down pushing on the backside of the shaft with the chuck that centers nicely inside the back of the hollow shaft. When shaft just moves take a scale reading, thats your start value, push down till it bottoms on the hub and just back off till its not on the hub and take the high reading. Obviously you are taking into account the bit of twist and the helix being used, so I used the 41-37 and 9-1 on the Cat springs, and 6-1 on the original Dalton Black/Orange.

I too was surprised at the difference between the EPI purple and the Dalton White. didn't expect that as their only supposed to be 10 lbs between them. 320 miles on the EPI and the Daltons are brand new, but even in your hand you know the Dalton White and Black/Lime have much more side pressure. I want to check a Red/White and I thought I had one, but for the life of me I can't seem to find it. I know I'm not going out an buying one. I have a few more here to try from the old race spring box, but no idea on who they are made by.



I line it up a couple different ways, install the belt and line up with straight edge on the side of the secondary spaced properly and measure with caliper, I then build a go/no go gauge and double check, then move driven back and forth. Also as another verification measurement, I then move secondary back and forth and measure the gap from each side of the front of the secondary to belt where the belt leaves the sheaves. I believe it to be spot on, less than a half MM movement can be seen as out of alignment when measuring both ways. I'm confident I have it spot and perfect on for my centers and belt length at full shift.

I'm also going to set it for a few MM of float and fire it up on the stand to see the movement from engagement to full shift while watching, it should confirm I have found the proper alignment and then bolt it down solid how I will actually run it, with no or zero float. Easy Peasy! Although I know my measurements are perfect I want to see how much difference there is from the angles on the clutches changing from hi to low range. I'm guessing 1-1.5mm in change there in actual movement.

You guys pay close attention because this stuff is like gold! Best dam clutching thread I’ve ever seen!

 

[snowdust]

Based on that data... Do you think the White is too much side pressure? I'm going to try your setup (yamaha clutches) and was going to get the white, but this data make me wonder if it is too much to be efficient.

 

[KnappAttack]

Based on that data... Do you think the White is too much side pressure? I'm going to try your setup (yamaha clutches) and was going to get the white, but this data make me wonder if it is too much to be efficient.

Dalton White is the same as Cat Sno-Pro Green. Try it and see is all you can do. All depends on the setup and belt being used. I think it will work well for the 8DN belt and added helix angles like the 41-37.

I'm thinking the EPI Purple may be loosing tension quickly. The Cat guys all use the Green Sno-Pro spring.

ClutchMaster, your thoughts?

 

[journeyman]

Are you going do any lake testing this weekend being that's all we have around here?

 

[ClutchMaster]

Thanks for asking Mike,
I agree, I have a the purple EPI, but I use the Cat green. I’ve never compared them in setups, I had the spring because it came with my turbo kit. I always thought it was the same as the green, so I had it for a spare spring.

After seeing the spring test results the white dalton I feel wound work well with a straight 39 or 40 helix for the trail. Especially with the dalton weights, you can’t move the weight around much they are profiled and weighted for a straight helix. STM’s would be a better choice for the progressive 41/37 imo.

I think these turbo sleds work well with a straight helix. It allows you to get up on boost quickly, but really pulls hard midrange/top end
With stock gearing and tunes there’s no doubt the 35 is to low in my mind.
I just switched my sled to a straight 44, green A/C spring, STM driven. It’s much better in the trails and I feel it actually pulls harder on the big end.

The straight helix’s allow you to run less initial wrap too, so you don’t get crazy spring wind when shifted out
M2C

 

[sledding rocks]

Thanks for asking Mike,
I agree, I have a the purple EPI, but I use the Cat green. I’ve never compared them in setups, I had the spring because it came with my turbo kit. I always thought it was the same as the green, so I had it for a spare spring.

After seeing the spring test results the white dalton I feel wound work well with a straight 39 or 40 helix for the trail. Especially with the dalton weights, you can’t move the weight around much they are profiled and weighted for a straight helix. STM’s would be a better choice for the progressive 41/37 imo.

I think these turbo sleds work well with a straight helix. It allows you to get up on boost quickly, but really pulls hard midrange/top end
With stock gearing and tunes there’s no doubt the 35 is to low in my mind.
I just switched my sled to a straight 44, green A/C spring, STM driven. It’s much better in the trails and I feel it actually pulls harder on the big end.

The straight helix’s allow you to run less initial wrap too, so you don’t get crazy spring wind when shifted out
M2C

this is great info , I totally agree with the straight helix and spring combo , it sure seems to carry the rpm much better , whats your thoughts for a helix and spring combo with taller gearing , 1.68 ratio ?

 

[**sj**]

Thanks for asking Mike,
I agree, I have a the purple EPI, but I use the Cat green. I’ve never compared them in setups, I had the spring because it came with my turbo kit. I always thought it was the same as the green, so I had it for a spare spring.

After seeing the spring test results the white dalton I feel wound work well with a straight 39 or 40 helix for the trail. Especially with the dalton weights, you can’t move the weight around much they are profiled and weighted for a straight helix. STM’s would be a better choice for the progressive 41/37 imo.

I think these turbo sleds work well with a straight helix. It allows you to get up on boost quickly, but really pulls hard midrange/top end
With stock gearing and tunes there’s no doubt the 35 is to low in my mind.
I just switched my sled to a straight 44, green A/C spring, STM driven. It’s much better in the trails and I feel it actually pulls harder on the big end.

The straight helix’s allow you to run less initial wrap too, so you don’t get crazy spring wind when shifted out
M2C

I found this to be true also...the 41/37 mike is using is similar to my 42/37 which liked a curved more adjustable weight...

Nice work Knapp..stay on it!

 

[ClutchMaster]

this is great info , I totally agree with the straight helix and spring combo , it sure seems to carry the rpm much better , whats your thoughts for a helix and spring combo with taller gearing , 1.68 ratio ?

All I can do is speculate, but usually dropping atleast a couple of degrees on the older secondary’s would do the trick. I would think the stock 35 or even the 33/35 would work with those super tall gears and make it trailable. No doubt a +270 tune will pull those gears, you just need to slow down the shift and grab the belt harder. I would think the new Dalton Blk/tan secondary spring paired with the stock 35 would be a good candidate for those tall gears.
If your running an 8dn try the cat green.

Those are the directions I would try.

 

[sledding rocks]

thanks , ill try the new dalton black /tan spring once I get it . I have tried the 39/35 , 41/35,41/37 . now I'm back with the straight 35 and it does feel the best one for my set up so far I'm trying the purple spring now , I'm using the xs825 belt and have put it to a torture test , 43 wot logs on a 270 and 300 hp test . currently at 500 miles , belt looks great , very little belt dust , touch wood alls good so far , 58 mm offset .

 

[KnappAttack]

It was really bothering me why the EPI purple was that much less than the Dalton cat white, so I had a look at the tangs and the EPI purple is obviously not as much torsion as the white Dalton, so I retested some springs at a different degree of torsion. Now it’s all coming together and starting to make sense. As can be seen on my notes just changing 10° makes a huge difference on this side pressure working with the helix.

I'll be starting with the Dalton White at 9-1 as I feel it will hold tension the longest and most consistently. As it breaks in maybe up it to 0-1.