Testing Viper "ECU voltage flash"...

[cannondale27]

I agree Bamboo. Maybe a capacitor would allow you to also use your EarthX without bringing it inside since a capacitor is not affected by cold like a battery.

 

[grizztracks]

Rewiring the sled is not the answer. I think if you were to check the Nytro system you'll find similar drops in voltage to the ECU during start cycles. The Nytro ECU just handles it better probably because it senses the start cycle and goes into some sort of conservative start mode. Maybe Yamaha needs to step up and recall the Cat ECU's instead of trying to figure out how to keep using broken parts.

Because many are reporting a two attempt start cycle with the new flash I'm thinking that the ECU has been re-programed to shut down the ignition on a cold start attempt if a low voltage condition is present. On the second attempt the circuitry has stored enough charge during the first attempt to start successfully. The Arctic Cat 2-stroke FI sleds that came without electric start required this on cold starts.

 

[cannondale27]

Rewiring the sled is not the answer. I think if you were to check the Nytro system you'll find similar drops in voltage to the ECU during start cycles. The Nytro ECU just handles it better probably because it senses the start cycle and goes into some sort of conservative start mode. Maybe Yamaha needs to step up and recall the Cat ECU's instead of trying to figure out how to keep using broken parts.

Because many are reporting a two attempt start cycle with the new flash I'm thinking that the ECU has been re-programed to shut down the ignition on a cold start attempt if a low voltage condition is present. On the second attempt the circuitry has stored enough charge during the first attempt to start successfully. The Arctic Cat 2-stroke FI sleds that came without electric start required this on cold starts.

I agree and disagree Grizz. I guarantee that if you hook that datalogger to a Nytro on startup it will not see the voltage drop Viper has to the ecu. That is wiring. Yes the new flash is timing or voltage dropping out on starter cranking that makes sense but is a crummy way of masking a issue.

 

[Vilas]

I just ordered a pcv. Will this give me the ability log data and watch for voltage drops? If the pcv won't log data, what is the next most affordable solution? I want to do the testing on my own sled and be able to see the results before I share any findings.

 

[cannondale27]

I think the Pod 300 logs electrical. It does everything else. That would connect to you PCV. Some of the afr guages also datalog. I will do some digging. I don't know for sure.

 

[cannondale27]

Just read through about 150 pages of the Innovate Manual for Datalogger. For 5v+ the voltage would have to be reduced to log it. Kinda sucks cause almost all their gauges are datalog capable with laptop so very affordable but not 12V. Need to rest my brain after that read. Really amazing things you can do.

 

[Vilas]

Wow! That's some serious reading! I'm going to order a pod 300 tomorrow so I can get some real data and see if I can make sense of this voltage drop and if/how it effects the ECU. I really enjoy this type of detective work.

 

[cannondale27]

Wow! That's some serious reading! I'm going to order a pod 300 tomorrow so I can get some real data and see if I can make sense of this voltage drop and if/how it effects the ECU. I really enjoy this type of detective work.

Anyone else want to form a opinion on the Innovate? Was really hoping it would work since I have it already but haven't used the Datalogging yet. Its free.Looks to do everything but 12v!
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/downloads/LogWorks3Setup.exe
Manual
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/manual/LogWorks3_Manual.pdf

 

[Bamboo]

I love the fact that there are so many here trying to figure out why. But wouldn't it be sufficient to say that why is what it is. And we cant change that. Now I don't think this will be a solution to my specific situation since the EarthX batteries don't work when cold. Or any Lithium battery for that matter, that is until they have been"woken up" But having a Ultra capacitor with a regular lead acid battery to give you the CCA when needed on cold mornings or any morning for that matter would or should take care of the low voltage on start up.
found this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/CDA-16V-25F...054627?hash=item25b962df63:g:IiAAAOSwAvJW~OeP

 

[Vilas]

This ultra capacitor could be the solution! This would help deliver that initial in-rush current drawn by the starter and prevent the voltage drop. I'd still like to do some more research on this but this might do it. Please note that I'm not endorsing this as a solution "yet" until I can do some testing and research. The description on this one is easier to understand:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapaci...5e72ee2&pid=100623&rk=4&rkt=6&sd=162024054627

 

[cannondale27]

The "Bus" description is exactly our scenario. One thing though. Is it possible the ECU has a Capacitor built into it already? Would think it would. Maybe it is just not being utilized? Also for testing the Chinese stuff is fine but for real thing if successful let's not buy China if possible.

 

[Bamboo]

Been watching this guys youtube vids on his take on the ultra capacitors. He actually built a complete replacement for the battery

this has really sparked my interest. His "hybrid" unit looks like the prefect solution.

 

[Janne339]

Great with all respone!

I have been talking to some people with knowledge about 12 volts electric system and have sent them the electrical diagram so they can take a look if they found something that could be done better in wirings.

My first step that I testing was to move the "little red" from start selenoid directly to battery (+) and I also testing an extra ground from stock battery (-) to the chassi. Moved the little black harness ground from motorblock to the new ground cable.

 

[Vilas]

From my career in electronics repair and design, I can tell you that GROUNDING is one place that manufacturers can get very sloppy. For example, not scraping paint off of chassis grounds, using too thin of ground cable, using many different ground points on the chassis which can create "ground loops" which can confuse digital electronics. Do we have any data on voltage drops after better grounding strategy has been implemented?

 

[Vilas]

The "Bus" description is exactly our scenario. One thing though. Is it possible the ECU has a Capacitor built into it already? Would think it would. Maybe it is just not being utilized? Also for testing the Chinese stuff is fine but for real thing if successful let's not buy China if possible.

The ECU does have capacitors but those are designed to stabilize the 12 volts due to small variations in operating conditions. Little capacitors can do nothing to offset giant current draws from something like a starter. Think of polarized capacitors in a circuit as trying to "maintain" a voltage. They use their stored electro-static charge to support the source voltage. So when the battery drops down to 10 volts, big capacitors will pick up the slack by discharging their stored energy and trying to maintain that 12 volts. The larger the demand, the larger the amount of capacitance needs to be. Let's say you install some big super capacitors to support the battery in your sled. The capacitors "charge up" to the same voltage as the 12 volt battery. Then once the starter is engaged, we are seeing a voltage drop which the capacitor tries to stabilize by dumping its stored energy back into the circuit. The more I talk here though, the more I'm wondering if we don't have seriously undersized cables to the starter? We should not be seeing such a big drop. The capacitor would help but it might be a band aid for the real problem which may be cabling.