to ontario riders

[Daranello]

Include the trail pass at the licence office. 240,000 registarrd ontario snowmobiler at $40. Is allot more than the 50,000 at $180. Plus think of the man hours in cost and savings. Be done with it. We all need our annual registration permit with ARE FREE!

 

[ScottyD]

i think the regional pass is a bad idea, the ofsc says they lost money on classic permits, so why would they set themselves up to lose money on regional permits, leave the permits the way they are including the classic permit

 

[grader]

i agree with daranello, make the permit a low cost and make it mandatory. this makes all sleds pay for the trails instead of those who now step up to the plate and do so. another thing that should end is the half price permits for the old classic scrap polluting 2 strokes. the whole industry had to clean up its emissions at our cost, and they give half price permits for the old junk, they should cost twice as much for a sled that you can track with the black exhaust line in the snow.

 

[SledFreak]

i'm a trail patrol officer,we always have snow to ride here,over the winter,i will meet alot of people on the trail,there are groups that come from down south,they have hardly any snow home so they trailer up here 3 to 4 times a season and ride in our region all the time,so they will be saving money by purchasing a region pass,

I'm just going to play the devils advocate here. As stated, separating in regions will be a good idea for many, but not for some.
So people go to the Toronto snowmobile show and buy a permit since they plan on riding in a certain area in northern Ontario. Then come January they get a big 3' dump of snow in their back yard and decide to save a trailer trip and spend a weekend riding at home with a permit that is no good for the area. Just like 2 seasons ago they got 5+' of snow in many parts of southwestern Ontario.

I was thinking maybe having a cost incorporated into the validation sticker for Ontario residence which would also include a permit. All others out of province or country only need to buy an Ontario OFSC permit. The cost per permit would drastically drop as it would include many more sleds then currently registered in OFSC.
I know its so easy for me to say, but so much red tape to go through to pass. If current permits continue to rise, they'll need to rise more so each coming year to offset the people that will no longer buy permits. Its not a good direction to go into. Most of us have no problem spending a bit more on a permit, but unfortunately I think we are the minority.

Dan

Thats what was supposed to happen when the made the trail permit law. But the monkeys at OFSC thought the government would kick in for the rest, but it never materialzed except for the law portion of it. The thing thats got me is the fact that they can offer a 135.00 classic permit, for a sled that is 15 years old. My 1998 670MXZ was very capable of touring all around Ontario. My point is, so is my new sled. If they want to attract new people and gain back old people, they need to drop the price back down to 135.00 across the baord. They need to get back to the basics and give up the magazine, media circus, and web site and concentrate on grooming trails. They have to do something as trails and clubs are closing at an alarming rate. Especially in the North where the snow is and the good trails were. I see more old sleds on trails then I do new ones these days. Obviously because of the Price. I also see people running without a permit... I for one who lives on a border town will not be buying a permit this year. The first time since I was 14. I am now 44 years old. I will be buying a permit for Michigan where it is only 35 or 40.00 bucks... I have completely had it with OFSC.

 

[Sasquatch]

I never ride outside distric 17! Might try 16 if Thunder Bay ever groomed again. Big hole between 16 and 17. I'd rather ride Manitoba as it is a days ride away. 4 or 5 hours of riding I can be in Manitoba.

90% plus is crown land in District 17. Hard to get people to buy a trail pass to ride crown land. Club has dropped to less then 20% of trail passes sold since they went up from 80 bucks. Raise the passes again and Distric 17 closes!Clubs can't support themselves with only a handfull of die hards riding. Volunteers as well as slim pickings.

I think a 135 dollar across the board pass is perfect for here. I'll not trailer 16 hours to ride in North bay or Barrie. I will trailer 3 hours to Manitoba and ride. I buy a Manitoba pass every year and at 115 bucks its a way better deal then the Ontario pass at 200. One more raise and I think I will start riding renagade like 80% of the riders now do. Keep buying a Manitoba pass and riding there mostly there!

We tried to lobby the OFSC and the Ministy of Transport on a 80 dollar pass for all sleds registered but that went nowhere and probably never will.

Worst is to think of the money that riders spend on fuel food and lodging never mind the sleds themselves. With clothing and custom parts its a fortune all around. Yet local community's seem to think its not their problem! When the trails close and the money stops rolling in maybe they will realize just how much sledders spend for thier fun.

 

[darv]

They need to go back to $100.00 before Dec 1st an raise it up to what ever after then people will buy an but at 200.00 they are nuts I have 3 sleds with insurance it would cost me 1k-1500.00 before the season even starts

 

[SledFreak]

Darrenello said it best... Either way they got to do something... Its just cannot support the current price point in this economy. I also read on another form that it went up to 210.00 for this year... F&^%$ rediculous...

 

[Irv]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

 

[Sasquatch]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

Ah Irv you call it griping but

(a) I don't ride 34,000 kms of Ontario trails so its a moot point. I use at most 500 to 800 kms and help to maintain a 200 kms of that.
(b) I don't golf or ski or go to the movies. All way to over priced as well.
(c) I buy the trail permit because as a volunteer I more then realize what it costs to keep the trails open. Trouble is I'm one of the handful left supporting a system that is dieing! If the pass rises to 210 this year then we will loose another few percent of trail pass buyers. We can hardly stay afloat now! This will kill the club its just a matter time! Something has to be done!
(d) I can get to town to get gas without using an OFSC trail. Even the Police will only charge someone on private land so I can along with all the other people can still follow the stakes across the lakes and get around on crown land with no resistance.
(e) I never griped about the price of passes even when they hit about 120 and the club members started walking away. I still supported and promoted the trails. But now with less then 20% of the members left and more to leave this fall. Yes I'm griping and will support a drop in permits by area.
(f) I complain about the cost of insurance but I have to have that because the fine for not having is 5,000 bucks I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. Now if trail passes where part of your plates every year problem solved. Unfortunatly they are not. If in the north it was 90% private land and 10% like southern Ontario and you raised the fine to 5,000 dollars. Police would soon have everyone riding supporting the trails.
(g) Don't even go with the all season long routine because a huge amount didn't even have a season last year.
(h) Irv tell me when is the price to high for you. My first permit cost me 80 bucks. In a few short years it was 160 or doubled. Now 210 is closing in on tripled. Will you say enough at 300 or lets say 420 thats only double say in the next few years.
(I) I buy insurance for my truck, I buy plates! The taxes on the fuel paves and maintains the highways and roads. The taxes from all the gas I buy for my sled goes where? I know the government puts money in but instead I would rather they look after the passes.

 

[ecopter]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

I'm tired of being categorized as "el cheapo" just because I too am weary of these astronomical prices. Since when has it become mandatory that a certain loyality must exist in sledders while opening our wallets like zombies to freely give without complaint just because we spent a lot on our machines, trucks, and trailers? Maybe this is a rich man's sport, but it doesn't automatically mean we have to accept the mentality that "you paid a lot to get here, now you're going to pay even more, and you'll like it because you're a sledder, and you can't complain since you paid a lot for your stuff."

I don't live in Canada, but I've spent tons of money snowmobiling there. Those days are done, sorry to say. I will not spend $140 or whatever it is for a seven day pass. Did I enjoy the trails? Yes. But just as I don't like paying for $100 Tylenol pills in the hospital because others don't pay (basically those that pay, pay for those who don't), I feel the same holds true for the trails in Canada. Less people are able to foot the bill, therefore those who do...have to pay more. And, even though our group was small, those eight sledders spent a lot of cash up there. That was a thousand dollars in trail passes (usually for Wawa), not to mention all the other money spent associated with our many days' stay. Mulitply this by tens, possibly hundreds and you'll see Irv, that you're not in the majority in your philsopohy.

jf

 

[ecopter]

By the way, Irv, a strange twist to your feelings about those griping is our voice may eventually be the loudest and most instrumental in getting things done. It's obvious that not griping about it is leading us down the path of "less participants" meaning less funds; it's not the other way around. More riders are griping and not paying than riders not griping and paying. The OFSC should recognize this because sooner rather than later.....something has to give.

jf

 

[SledFreak]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

I would pay it if the trails actually went some where. There are more closures going on then you think... Last Year they officially closed the trail from Sault to WAWA. Thats 400km stretch. There is no where to go past WAWA. They closed them from the Sault to Chapleau. Its not like its all connected, like it used to be... When you pay 210, the trails better be groomed and they are just not. Grooming around here is done once maybe twice a week. When the pass used to be a 100.00 bucks they were done every night. Whats wrong with this picture. And its not just my area, it's like this in the muskokas as well as I have a buddy that lives there and he says the same damn thing and that place is supposed to have great trails... OFSC has screwed up this whole snowmobile system. Why do you think there are less and less American's coming up to ride anymore. Our Trails sucks and they cost way to much. They used to come the most when the price was around 100-130.00 bucks.. I for one hope they close. Maybe the governmnet will take notice that there 30 million dollar industry just took a crap because they would not kick in enough to help support it. They could fix this issue easily if they just charged everybody a flat fee for licenecing your sled. 41.00 bucks would take care of the issue and they would have plentry of money to run the clubs.

I can also take my kids skising for like 10 bucks every friday night if I wanted too...

 

[yamahas]

I like the idea Darrenello mentioned, problem is that as I understand it sleds in northern ontario don't need val tags (I do not know what is considered "northern" Ontario).

Irv, I understand what you are saying. The pass has a great value.

Ecopter, I agree that "those who pay, pay for those who don't". Maybe part of the solution is more OPP enforcement for making sure passes are paid for, I don't mean telling them to get a permit, i mean actually laying fines. They can check for a permit without even stopping us.

By the way, it costs $496/KM to operate the trails. It cost 19.1 million in the 2011/12 season. We only generated 14.6 million from permits. This leaves almost 5 million dollars in operating costs that are not covered by trail passes. I got these numbers from the Go Snowmobiling magazine from the OFSC. Just thought some numbers would be good to know. I agree the permit is expensive when compared to systems that neighbor ontario's but the OFSC is not making money here, they are not holding back on us.

I think maybe re thinking how money is distributed would be helpful to the entire system. A lot of clubs received money through permits while they remained closed all season, just a idea.

 

[monte1214]

Ah Irv you call it griping but

(a) I don't ride 34,000 kms of Ontario trails so its a moot point. I use at most 500 to 800 kms and help to maintain a 200 kms of that.
(b) I don't golf or ski or go to the movies. All way to over priced as well.
(c) I buy the trail permit because as a volunteer I more then realize what it costs to keep the trails open. Trouble is I'm one of the handful left supporting a system that is dieing! If the pass rises to 210 this year then we will loose another few percent of trail pass buyers. We can hardly stay afloat now! This will kill the club its just a matter time! Something has to be done!
(d) I can get to town to get gas without using an OFSC trail. Even the Police will only charge someone on private land so I can along with all the other people can still follow the stakes across the lakes and get around on crown land with no resistance.
(e) I never griped about the price of passes even when they hit about 120 and the club members started walking away. I still supported and promoted the trails. But now with less then 20% of the members left and more to leave this fall. Yes I'm griping and will support a drop in permits by area.
(f) I complain about the cost of insurance but I have to have that because the fine for not having is 5,000 bucks I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. Now if trail passes where part of your plates every year problem solved. Unfortunatly they are not. If in the north it was 90% private land and 10% like southern Ontario and you raised the fine to 5,000 dollars. Police would soon have everyone riding supporting the trails.
(g) Don't even go with the all season long routine because a huge amount didn't even have a season last year.
(h) Irv tell me when is the price to high for you. My first permit cost me 80 bucks. In a few short years it was 160 or doubled. Now 210 is closing in on tripled. Will you say enough at 300 or lets say 420 thats only double say in the next few years.
(I) I buy insurance for my truck, I buy plates! The taxes on the fuel paves and maintains the highways and roads. The taxes from all the gas I buy for my sled goes where? I know the government puts money in but instead I would rather they look after the passes.

- I agree with Irv. There's just too much "griping" about this subject.

(A) You're the minority here. Most sledder's are in SW Ontario, and we ride at least 1/4 of the trails, and enjoy having the option to travel to the rest. Just because you chose not to enjoy what this province has to provide, that's your choice.

(B) Whatever else you do (if anything) costs money. One DAY of golf will run you almost $200 by the time it's all done.
(C) You should be buying a trail permit because you ride the trails! It has nothing to do with volunteering?!?! I know people that volunteer, and don't even ride!

(D) Again, you're the minority here. Most of us need the trails to navigate between desitinations or else we're tresspasing.
There's more private land down here in "the south" that is crucial to the trail system.
(E) There's less and less members, because younger people are just plain lazy. They all expect something for nothing. Clubs/OFSC need to be promoting volunteer work. The older volunteers understand what it takes to open trails, but there's too many people that don't have a friggin clue.

(F) We don't need more cops on our trails. Plain and simple. I agree...the TP should be included in our MTO plate price.
(G) Snow is hit and miss. Clubs need the early season permits bought to help support preseason work. I hate people that wait to see if it's going to snow, then buy a TP.

(H) How much is too much? IMO, I'd pay $500 a year to ride. That's just me though.
This is an expensive sport, and a TP is part of it. If you want to play...you gotta pay. If you don't like it, sell the sled, or take your chances riding without a TP.

(I) Since when does tax from fuel pave roads and maintain highways? Maybe "some", but not all of it. Again...if you want to play...you gotta pay.


- The way I look at it is that...yeah, something needs to be done.
- The TP is a way to get some of the necessary monies needed to run. That price will never go down, but hopefully the OFSC curbs big hikes.

- I also heard that the whole "Regional" thing is a way of replacing "Districts" and I personally think it's a good idea.
- I heard what some the regions will/would be and I personally think it'll work fine.

 

[SledFreak]

Ah Irv you call it griping but

(a) I don't ride 34,000 kms of Ontario trails so its a moot point. I use at most 500 to 800 kms and help to maintain a 200 kms of that.
(b) I don't golf or ski or go to the movies. All way to over priced as well.
(c) I buy the trail permit because as a volunteer I more then realize what it costs to keep the trails open. Trouble is I'm one of the handful left supporting a system that is dieing! If the pass rises to 210 this year then we will loose another few percent of trail pass buyers. We can hardly stay afloat now! This will kill the club its just a matter time! Something has to be done!
(d) I can get to town to get gas without using an OFSC trail. Even the Police will only charge someone on private land so I can along with all the other people can still follow the stakes across the lakes and get around on crown land with no resistance.
(e) I never griped about the price of passes even when they hit about 120 and the club members started walking away. I still supported and promoted the trails. But now with less then 20% of the members left and more to leave this fall. Yes I'm griping and will support a drop in permits by area.
(f) I complain about the cost of insurance but I have to have that because the fine for not having is 5,000 bucks I believe, correct me if I'm wrong. Now if trail passes where part of your plates every year problem solved. Unfortunatly they are not. If in the north it was 90% private land and 10% like southern Ontario and you raised the fine to 5,000 dollars. Police would soon have everyone riding supporting the trails.
(g) Don't even go with the all season long routine because a huge amount didn't even have a season last year.
(h) Irv tell me when is the price to high for you. My first permit cost me 80 bucks. In a few short years it was 160 or doubled. Now 210 is closing in on tripled. Will you say enough at 300 or lets say 420 thats only double say in the next few years.
(I) I buy insurance for my truck, I buy plates! The taxes on the fuel paves and maintains the highways and roads. The taxes from all the gas I buy for my sled goes where? I know the government puts money in but instead I would rather they look after the passes.

- I agree with Irv. There's just too much "griping" about this subject.

(A) You're the minority here. Most sledder's are in SW Ontario, and we ride at least 1/4 of the trails, and enjoy having the option to travel to the rest. Just because you chose not to enjoy what this province has to provide, that's your choice.

(B) Whatever else you do (if anything) costs money. One DAY of golf will run you almost $200 by the time it's all done.
(C) You should be buying a trail permit because you ride the trails! It has nothing to do with volunteering?!?! I know people that volunteer, and don't even ride!

(D) Again, you're the minority here. Most of us need the trails to navigate between desitinations or else we're tresspasing.
There's more private land down here in "the south" that is crucial to the trail system.
(E) There's less and less members, because younger people are just plain lazy. They all expect something for nothing. Clubs/OFSC need to be promoting volunteer work. The older volunteers understand what it takes to open trails, but there's too many people that don't have a friggin clue.

(F) We don't need more cops on our trails. Plain and simple. I agree...the TP should be included in our MTO plate price.
(G) Snow is hit and miss. Clubs need the early season permits bought to help support preseason work. I hate people that wait to see if it's going to snow, then buy a TP.

(H) How much is too much? IMO, I'd pay $500 a year to ride. That's just me though.
This is an expensive sport, and a TP is part of it. If you want to play...you gotta pay. If you don't like it, sell the sled, or take your chances riding without a TP.

(I) Since when does tax from fuel pave roads and maintain highways? Maybe "some", but not all of it. Again...if you want to play...you gotta pay.


- The way I look at it is that...yeah, something needs to be done.
- The TP is a way to get some of the necessary monies needed to run. That price will never go down, but hopefully the OFSC curbs big hikes.

- I also heard that the whole "Regional" thing is a way of replacing "Districts" and I personally think it's a good idea.
- I heard what some the regions will/would be and I personally think it'll work fine.

You are way out.... Snowmobiling was never about making it into an expensve sport. You don't need a 12,000 sled to go riding. A 12 year old sled will do the job. Buying the sled is not the issue.... Its the insurance, OFSC PERMIT just to get going is what Costs. Thats 600 bucks before it even leaves your yard. If all other provinces and states can do it cheaper, then why can't OFSC. Charging more is only going to be the death of OFSC. Low snow and bad economy for the last 3 years should NOT equal higher price permits... It just does not make sense. The number 1 reason we are not seeing Americans come to Ontario to sled is because of the price of the permit.