to ontario riders

[Irv]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

Irv, gotta disagree with that quote....it's been a long time since we've had enough snow to open all 34000 kms of those trails. You have to keep in mind that the OFSC advertises that we have that many miles in trails...I'd bet we had 1/3 or that open last season...so that argument really doesn't cut it anymore. The trails in my area were listed in the yellow last season...we got 3 dumpings of snow that amounted to about 4-5" each time...not sure how they even got them listed limited as the snow only held for 3 days each time. $200 to me is nothing for the season...to me it's peanuts to ride where ever you want in the province...but that's only IF you can...all weather dependant. For the people that run 3-4 sleds for the family it's a hard pill to swallow, especially if we get squat for snow like last season. Other areas that have the same amounts of snow have cheaper trail passes...or areas that get more snow have cheaper passes...you have to admit when compared to other areas ON is an expensive place to ride....fwiw, I'm not complaining about the price...just stating a fact.

I agree to but what is the OFSC to do, give back refunds if all 34,000 kms of trails don't open?

I am not realy sure what other areas offer cheaper trail passes? I am sure they exist, but are they as well mapped out, is signage to our standard, do you have to follow the same rules/regs as us, is their insurance as expensive as our's etc etc etc?

Has anyone looked at the price of a Permit in Quebec lately? It was just raised another $20 bucks and is now at $340 regular and $280 early season.

I know we are not Quebec, and we could certainly learn a thing or 2 from them, but their rules/regs etc are also different than our's.

Like I said earlier, definitely some things need to change with the OFSC but nothing will get it back on track faster than a few good old CDN winters and an improvement in the economy.

Quebec includes your insurance and permit. At early season, my sled insurance and permit amounts to 560.00. Why are we paying the CEO of OFSC 300,000.00 a year to run it? Thats ludicrous... They need to remove the media, web, the magazines, etc... Their expensive media weekend trips that amount in thousand for lodging and food... They blow a third of the sales on administrative costs. IMO... They need to start with the government to take it over....

$300,000 thousand a year, are you sure about that, have a link??

I am not sure where you're from Sled Freak but I can honestly say I don't want or need any more Gov't interaction than what we already get!

Their record speaks for themselves and if you think things are bad now, then wait to see what it would look like after they were done!

 

[SledFreak]

As I am a government employee... lol... I hear what you are saying. This current government should be charged and thrown in jail. I am just looking at it from another angle. Western Provinces control insurance companies unlike here in Ontario and there prices are cheap compared to hear. Its just an example. Quebec does the same...

300,000.00 is what I was told from a pretty reliable source who talks with the CEO of OFSC alot on these matters... His exact words were "its not 200,000 a year, but 300,000.00 a year"... Pretty pathetic if you ask me...

 

[Irv]

As I am a government employee... lol... I hear what you are saying. This current government should be charged and thrown in jail. I am just looking at it from another angle. Western Provinces control insurance companies unlike here in Ontario and there prices are cheap compared to hear. Its just an example. Quebec does the same...

300,000.00 is what I was told from a pretty reliable source who talks with the CEO of OFSC alot on these matters... His exact words were "its not 200,000 a year, but 300,000.00 a year"... Pretty pathetic if you ask me...

If that is indeed the truth, then I agree, it's pretty pathetic

 

[YammyRX1]

If the sport was healthy and growing nobody would blink about paying top dollar for good management but if it's in decline there has to be changes.

 

[Sasquatch]

- I agree with Irv. There's just too much "griping" about this subject.

Never too much input from the masses!

(A) You're the minority here. Most sledder's are in SW Ontario, and we ride at least 1/4 of the trails, and enjoy having the option to travel to the rest. Just because you chose not to enjoy what this province has to provide, that's your choice.

Yes it is and my agreeing with a lobby at the AGM means what? Or is this the Ontario ends at North Bay mentality? I chose to help the OFSC keep thier dream cross Ontario trail system open in my area. Thier 210 before Dec and 300 after is not helping me and mine! You do have the option to trailer for twenty to 24 hours over some mean roads to get here and ride. I'll lay odds you won't do it. But if you do I'll tour you around.

(B) Whatever else you do (if anything) costs money. One DAY of golf will run you almost $200 by the time it's all done.

Golf should cost twice as much! I sled and it has little to do with golfing!

(C) You should be buying a trail permit because you ride the trails! It has nothing to do with volunteering?!?! I know people that volunteer, and don't even ride!

Maybe you should read what I said! I know what it costs to maintain the trails because I volunteer! That had nothing to do with why I buy a pass!

(D) Again, you're the minority here. Most of us need the trails to navigate between desitinations or else we're tresspasing.
There's more private land down here in "the south" that is crucial to the trail system.

Again people will not buy if they can ride for free on crown land! Anywhere north of Barrie when you draw a line east to west becomes mostly crown land. The locals are not buying passes any more. That was my point and as you go North past Barrie it starts to fall apart.

(E) There's less and less members, because younger people are just plain lazy. They all expect something for nothing. Clubs/OFSC need to be promoting volunteer work. The older volunteers understand what it takes to open trails, but there's too many people that don't have a friggin clue.

I don't think lazy has anything to do with dropping from 0ver 900 members to barely over 200! If you buy a pass your a member if you don't your not. If 10% volunteer at 900 you have 90 and at 200 you have 20. Simple math.

(F) We don't need more cops on our trails. Plain and simple. I agree...the TP should be included in our MTO plate price.

Finally full agreement.

(G) Snow is hit and miss. Clubs need the early season permits bought to help support preseason work. I hate people that wait to see if it's going to snow, then buy a TP.

It is what it is!

(H) How much is too much? IMO, I'd pay $500 a year to ride. That's just me though.
This is an expensive sport, and a TP is part of it. If you want to play...you gotta pay. If you don't like it, sell the sled, or take your chances riding without a TP.

Now your the minority on the 500 but many are keeping the sled and riding on crown land without paying for a pass!

(I) Since when does tax from fuel pave roads and maintain highways? Maybe "some", but not all of it. Again...if you want to play...you gotta pay.

Yep and a fool and his money are soon parted!

- The way I look at it is that...yeah, something needs to be done.

Yep it does!

- The TP is a way to get some of the necessary monies needed to run. That price will never go down, but hopefully the OFSC curbs big hikes.

To late tripled in 10 years and running in the red! Soon to double in the next few years!

- I also heard that the whole "Regional" thing is a way of replacing "Districts" and I personally think it's a good idea.
- I heard what some the regions will/would be and I personally think it'll work fine

Yes I think a regional pass will work great! Anything to get more people riding and enjoying my favorite sport!

 

[Sasquatch]

I like the idea Darrenello mentioned, problem is that as I understand it sleds in northern ontario don't need val tags (I do not know what is considered "northern" Ontario).

What I don't need a tag? When did that happen? Don't get caught with a Valid Tag or you are being fined! Ontario laws apply up even up here! You don't get much further north then us! OFSC wise anyway!

A bit of humor however! We are in the North but if I drive due west 100 miles I'm in southern part of Manitoba.

 

[yamahas]

Its what I read on another forum with the same discussion going on there. Maybe (and the only way it makes sense to me as well) it is only for those that live far north of the OFSC trail system, perhaps I'm mistaken but that's my understanding from reading.

 

[Daranello]

guys your thinking one sled....some family's have multiple sleds....its WAS a family sport but now it could cost ya over $2,000 a year for permits and insurance....it's crazy......

Plus Gas inclueded ROAD tax.,...the gov should kick back that tax to the tails

 

[SledFreak]

there may be changes to our current system starting next season,now this is just talking,but the ofsc is looking for ways to improvve and attract more people,they mentioned having the province divided in 5 section,northeast,northwest,central,south east and southwest,you could purchase a pass just for that region at a lower cost or if you still want to ride accross the whole province,a regular season pass would still be available for the same price as what we pay right now,i think its a great idea having the option of buying where you ride for cheaper,dont know about the prices but it would be lower for sure,this is all talk but it would be nice if it passed vote

They should have did it for this season. It will be to late for next year, if it makes it that far. I believe OFSC will be bankrupt soon, due to lack of funding.

 

[Daranello]

I like the idea Darrenello mentioned, problem is that as I understand it sleds in northern ontario don't need val tags (I do not know what is considered "northern" Ontario).

What I don't need a tag? When did that happen? Don't get caught with a Valid Tag or you are being fined! Ontario laws apply up even up here! You don't get much further north then us! OFSC wise anyway!

A bit of humor however! We are in the North but if I drive due west 100 miles I'm in southern part of Manitoba.

Northern Ontario are little stickers on the left side of the sled with the year (same as your car) if free...and yes its mandatory and the law!!!

AND you dont need a trail permit to ride on Cown land EVEN if its an OFSC trail....close up the loop holes and make it open to everyone and charge more for a registation permit period....Out of province or country are welcome fo free as long as they are insured and registered

 

[shadow44]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

Irv, gotta disagree with that quote....it's been a long time since we've had enough snow to open all 34000 kms of those trails. You have to keep in mind that the OFSC advertises that we have that many miles in trails...I'd bet we had 1/3 or that open last season...so that argument really doesn't cut it anymore. The trails in my area were listed in the yellow last season...we got 3 dumpings of snow that amounted to about 4-5" each time...not sure how they even got them listed limited as the snow only held for 3 days each time. $200 to me is nothing for the season...to me it's peanuts to ride where ever you want in the province...but that's only IF you can...all weather dependant. For the people that run 3-4 sleds for the family it's a hard pill to swallow, especially if we get squat for snow like last season. Other areas that have the same amounts of snow have cheaper trail passes...or areas that get more snow have cheaper passes...you have to admit when compared to other areas ON is an expensive place to ride....fwiw, I'm not complaining about the price...just stating a fact.

I agree to but what is the OFSC to do, give back refunds if all 34,000 kms of trails don't open?

I am not realy sure what other areas offer cheaper trail passes? I am sure they exist, but are they as well mapped out, is signage to our standard, do you have to follow the same rules/regs as us, is their insurance as expensive as our's etc etc etc?

Has anyone looked at the price of a Permit in Quebec lately? It was just raised another $20 bucks and is now at $340 regular and $280 early season.

I know we are not Quebec, and we could certainly learn a thing or 2 from them, but their rules/regs etc are also different than our's.

Like I said earlier, definitely some things need to change with the OFSC but nothing will get it back on track faster than a few good old CDN winters and an improvement in the economy.

No I don't think they need to refund....I just don't like the argument that the price of a permit is cheap when you look at how many kms of trails we have access to...when in reality, we never have that much open. The permit price I guess I was comparing to US trails...some states charge $25 for a season pass. Signage isn't that great in Ont....I've ridden down alot of trails and shook my head...it's good, don't get me wrong....but I wouldn't call it the best.

 

[yamahas]

I like the idea Darrenello mentioned, problem is that as I understand it sleds in northern ontario don't need val tags (I do not know what is considered "northern" Ontario).

What I don't need a tag? When did that happen? Don't get caught with a Valid Tag or you are being fined! Ontario laws apply up even up here! You don't get much further north then us! OFSC wise anyway!

A bit of humor however! We are in the North but if I drive due west 100 miles I'm in southern part of Manitoba.

Northern Ontario are little stickers on the left side of the sled with the year (same as your car) if free...and yes its mandatory and the law!!!

So you need the sticker but its free?

This is where I was reading about it...

http://ontarioconditions.com/forums/ind ... e__st__125 Post #147

Sasquatch, I guess I should have said don't need to pay for it then?

 

[Daranello]

I like the idea Darrenello mentioned, problem is that as I understand it sleds in northern ontario don't need val tags (I do not know what is considered "northern" Ontario).

What I don't need a tag? When did that happen? Don't get caught with a Valid Tag or you are being fined! Ontario laws apply up even up here! You don't get much further north then us! OFSC wise anyway!

A bit of humor however! We are in the North but if I drive due west 100 miles I'm in southern part of Manitoba.

Northern Ontario are little stickers on the left side of the sled with the year (same as your car) if free...and yes its mandatory and the law!!!

So you need the sticker but its free?

This is where I was reading about it...

http://ontarioconditions.com/forums/ind ... e__st__125 Post #147

Sasquatch, I guess I should have said don't need to pay for it then?

Yep, its Free! 1 or 2 year...free

 

[Daranello]

copied this post from OS:



it should be done like the states... ALL SLEDS ARE REGISTERED UNLESS OPERATED ON YOUR OWN PRIVATE LAND OR PRIVATE LANDS WITH PERMISSION FROM THE OWNER. they might not need trail permits but, should be registered and paid for their registrations. this helps track numbers of real sleds in operation, adds money to the funds to better the system and crown land for ALL.

the crown land argument for trail permits is one thing but, the val tags are another. val tag monies should go to the mto/mnr AND the ofsc to maintain accesses for these public lands, and expand the reach of the trail system when needed and warranted. NO ONE SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM VAL TAGS. atv's, utv, offroad motorcycles (not used in closed course riding/racing), sleds, ect...

also the mto/mnr and the ofsc should put pressure on your provincial governments to get a percentage of the fuel tax given back to the sledders, boaters, atver's ect.. those monies can be spent to help the ENTIRE SYSTEMS TOO! help for boat ramps, road access for crown lands, trail projects ect.... think of all the gas the sledders boaters and atvers buy, all that tax goes to road only projects, even though these units never drive on the road. maybe there should be taxless pumps for these units to fill up???? in reality it is an unfair tax to these recreations, as we see no benefit from the tax money paid in gas in these particular vehicles.

most states have this tax percentage given back for these recreational vehicle fuel purchases

 

[Sasquatch]

So you need the sticker but its free?

This is where I was reading about it...

http://ontarioconditions.com/forums/ind ... e__st__125 Post #147

Sasquatch, I guess I should have said don't need to pay for it then?

No its been free for years but that has little to do with trail passes. If you introduce a fee across the board for trail passes collected when the sled is registered it will apply to all even us Northern Ontario riders. It was the lobby that we in the North put forward to the AGM and were turned down! It is the only thing in my mind that will keep the trails open in the North. Regional passes is something that will work as well, anything to reduce the price of a trail pass. We need more people buying passes to keep the system alive. 210 dollar passes are killing it!

Now the pay to play mentality of those that buy is great and I understand it but its not those people we need to buy passes, we already have them even if the passes hit as some say 500 bucks. Its all those who have quit because of the price of the passes that we need back.

Unfortunatly the pay to play people right away jump on anyone who brings up the price of a pass and get all in your face about it. Great to see the loyalty to the trail system but it is not the solution to the problem of huge reductions in trail pass sales. Getting in someones face about their not having a unquestionable loyalty and willingness to pay whatever is asked just helps to drive riders away. Vinegar and honey idea. If a regional pass at 125 bucks doubles my trail passes sold I'm money ahead.

I'm more then willing to and can think of many ways to push a regional pass and make it work, then to continue to try to convince people here that they can trailer 12 to 16 hours (after of course most buy a trailer) to ride trails around Barrie, North Bay or Renfrew just because their pass gives them access to those places. There is 2,200 sleds registered in this area and just over 200 passes sold. That leaves a lot of room to double the trail passes sold and still be at less then half the passes sold only a few short years ago.

99% of the people just open the garage door and fire up the sled to hit the trails in the North. Its you people in the south east that should trailer up here to this winter wonderland and ride the wilderness trails we have. The OSM magazine riders where most impressed with this area and recommended it as a must ride area. Let me know your coming I'll tour ya around in my retirement!

So hate me if ya think I'm whining about trail passes and attacking your beloved trails but I like to think I'm trying to keep that system alive and heathy for the next generation by pointing out there is a problem lets work together to fix it.