to ontario riders

[YammyRX1]

Lots of good points and opinions. I think it would be well worth the time to visit other sledding clubs (out of province and out of country) to see what the best practices are and see what level of government vs private funding there is. The only way to convince our government to spend more or change the rules is with facts and data. If we can prove that it is financially beneficial it would be hard to argue against it.

My 2 cents- if the main objective is to attract new members I would have no problem offering a discounted permit to both a new member and an existing member if they are able to talk someone into joining the sport. So for the first year the OFSC still gets more money with two discounted passes than one full price, and if the new guy stays they both pay full pop from that point on. On a semi-related note, I would also have no problem offering volunteers a discounted pass as that may encourage more people to volunteer and potentially reduce overall costs. The more incentives that can be offered the better off we will be as long as the math works.

 

[Irv]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

I would pay it if the trails actually went some where. There are more closures going on then you think... Last Year they officially closed the trail from Sault to WAWA. Thats 400km stretch. There is no where to go past WAWA. They closed them from the Sault to Chapleau. Its not like its all connected, like it used to be... When you pay 210, the trails better be groomed and they are just not. Grooming around here is done once maybe twice a week. When the pass used to be a 100.00 bucks they were done every night. Whats wrong with this picture. And its not just my area, it's like this in the muskokas as well as I have a buddy that lives there and he says the same damn thing and that place is supposed to have great trails... OFSC has screwed up this whole snowmobile system. Why do you think there are less and less American's coming up to ride anymore. Our Trails sucks and they cost way to much. They used to come the most when the price was around 100-130.00 bucks.. I for one hope they close. Maybe the governmnet will take notice that there 30 million dollar industry just took a crap because they would not kick in enough to help support it. They could fix this issue easily if they just charged everybody a flat fee for licenecing your sled. 41.00 bucks would take care of the issue and they would have plentry of money to run the clubs.

I can also take my kids skising for like 10 bucks every friday night if I wanted too...

I am not disagreeing that the OFSC is in trouble and something needs to be done, I get that but this constant griping about the price of permits, which hasn't even kept up with inflation, is not the way to go about it

Above, you state many things but take a look at what you have written?

Do you think any of those trail closures have anything to do with the local economy up there and the fact that a lot of people have left the areas due to lack of work?
Do you think those that have stayed and are collecting EI or Welfare have the money/means to continue sledding?
Do you think clubs with far less ridership and far less volunteers have the means to stay afloat let alone groom as much as they always did, with far less money?

Do you also not think those same Americans would continue to come if their dollar was still worth a $1.30 or higher than our's, or the price of gas was still not .50 or ..60 cents a litre??
Do you also not think they would still come if their economy was booming like it was back then and people had lots of expendable money like they use to??

Imo, most of this is due to the recession/state of the economy and the fact people with money are not spending it and those that don't have money are looking for it.
Then throw in the the lack of snow we have seen the past few years that is definitely not helping either!

There are no easy answers I know, but complaining about the price of the permit is not helping the situation either as it only adds to dissension in the ranks when this is constantly being brought up!

All I can say is get out and volunteer if you can, buy a permit, and encourage those that don't to purchase one or simply refuse to ride with them, then pray hard for a good old fashioned winter!

 

[monte1214]

I would also have no problem offering volunteers a discounted pass as that may encourage more people to volunteer and potentially reduce overall costs. The more incentives that can be offered the better off we will be as long as the math works.

- X2!! That's an awesome idea!!
- Volunteer an "X" amount of hours, have it documented and verified by the club, and get a percentage off of the price of a TP.

- Betcha more people would show up for a few hours of redecking a bridge, brushing a trail, prepping a groomer, doing signage, etc.

- Again...an excellent idea!

 

[Irv]

I would also have no problem offering volunteers a discounted pass as that may encourage more people to volunteer and potentially reduce overall costs. The more incentives that can be offered the better off we will be as long as the math works.

- X2!! That's an awesome idea!!
- Volunteer an "X" amount of hours, have it documented and verified by the club, and get a percentage off of the price of a TP.

- Betcha more people would show up for a few hours of redecking a bridge, brushing a trail, prepping a groomer, doing signage, etc.

- Again...an excellent idea!

That would be key as would ensuring they actualy did something as I could see some guys just showing up and basically standing around until X number of hours were logged then grab their permit and be gone for the rest of the season.

I am also wondering what would happen if said number of hours were reached, would most just pack it in after that leaving the club(s) with no one?

Or what about the guy who puts more hours in than the next guy, does he get a further reduction in his price?

I like the idea, but I think these are valid points and should be well thought out before ever being implemented.

 

[monte1214]

That would be key as would ensuring they actually did something as I could see some guys just showing up and basically standing around until X number of hours were logged then grab their permit and be gone for the rest of the season.

I am also wondering what would happen if said number of hours were reached, would most just pack it in after that leaving the club(s) with no one?

Or what about the guy who puts more hours in than the next guy, does he get a further reduction in his price?

I like the idea, but I think these are valid points and should be well thought out before ever being implemented.

- That's why it would have to be verified by the club.
- If the Trail Coordinator (or delegate) didn't feel you "earned" it, they could dispute it.
- I highly doubt that would happen though. Every little bit counts. Whether its lugging wood to re-deck a bridge, picking up sticks while walking the trail, or flipping hot dogs a club event.

- The pass would be given out after the hours were reached, and by then the clubs would have the much needed help. (remember...they'd be the ones saying where the help is needed, not the volunteer telling them where he/she will go.)

- Reach "X" amount and you get it. No more, no less.
- If someone decides to pack it in after that, then so be it. At least he/she contributed. Anything extra that people put in is still a bonus to the club.

- It would obviously have to be more thought out before being implemented, but it's something that VIA could look at.

 

[darv]

The bottom dollar is the OFSC has price them self out of business , where I live we just ride in Minnesota an get treated like kings all the business love us an the cost of a permit is $17.00 my town we have a 1K snowmobiles registered an they are still riding but 80% are riding Minnesota these same people would buy a ofsc permit too when it was $100.00 but the ofsc in there great wisdom price them self to high an found out just like the big 3 auto found out in canada

 

[yamahas]

I get 1$ per hour of volunteer work up to a maximum of 50 bucks with my club, I help out on the trails and I use it twards my tail pass. Buy my pass before the price goes up. Not a bad deal at all. It does not offset the gas I pay to get to the trail to help work but it sure helps when it gets time to buy the pass!

They also emailed me this morning actually regarding a contest district one is having where if you are between the ages of 12 and 23 you have a chance of winning a new snowmobile jacket. I think this is a very inexpensive way of attracting young volunteers.

 

[pat the rat]

no matter what the ofsc does in the future,there will be people bashing the ideas,good or bad,for diehard snowmobilers like us,the price of the permit doesnt bother us,but for many,a 10-20$ increase is enough to make them quit,i hear it all the time,just hope they do something soon to save the sport in ontario

 

[SledFreak]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

I would pay it if the trails actually went some where. There are more closures going on then you think... Last Year they officially closed the trail from Sault to WAWA. Thats 400km stretch. There is no where to go past WAWA. They closed them from the Sault to Chapleau. Its not like its all connected, like it used to be... When you pay 210, the trails better be groomed and they are just not. Grooming around here is done once maybe twice a week. When the pass used to be a 100.00 bucks they were done every night. Whats wrong with this picture. And its not just my area, it's like this in the muskokas as well as I have a buddy that lives there and he says the same damn thing and that place is supposed to have great trails... OFSC has screwed up this whole snowmobile system. Why do you think there are less and less American's coming up to ride anymore. Our Trails sucks and they cost way to much. They used to come the most when the price was around 100-130.00 bucks.. I for one hope they close. Maybe the governmnet will take notice that there 30 million dollar industry just took a crap because they would not kick in enough to help support it. They could fix this issue easily if they just charged everybody a flat fee for licenecing your sled. 41.00 bucks would take care of the issue and they would have plentry of money to run the clubs.

I can also take my kids skising for like 10 bucks every friday night if I wanted too...

I am not disagreeing that the OFSC is in trouble and something needs to be done, I get that but this constant griping about the price of permits, which hasn't even kept up with inflation, is not the way to go about it

Above, you state many things but take a look at what you have written?

Do you think any of those trail closures have anything to do with the local economy up there and the fact that a lot of people have left the areas due to lack of work?
Do you think those that have stayed and are collecting EI or Welfare have the money/means to continue sledding?
Do you think clubs with far less ridership and far less volunteers have the means to stay afloat let alone groom as much as they always did, with far less money?

Do you also not think those same Americans would continue to come if their dollar was still worth a $1.30 or higher than our's, or the price of gas was still not .50 or ..60 cents a litre??
Do you also not think they would still come if their economy was booming like it was back then and people had lots of expendable money like they use to??

Imo, most of this is due to the recession/state of the economy and the fact people with money are not spending it and those that don't have money are looking for it.
Then throw in the the lack of snow we have seen the past few years that is definitely not helping either!

There are no easy answers I know, but complaining about the price of the permit is not helping the situation either as it only adds to dissension in the ranks when this is constantly being brought up!

All I can say is get out and volunteer if you can, buy a permit, and encourage those that don't to purchase one or simply refuse to ride with them, then pray hard for a good old fashioned winter!

As I agree in some of your comments... The bottom line is this. They are losing permits sales in droves. Locally and Ontario Wide... We wont even talk Outside of Ontario... Raising the prices and or keeping it the same price is Not helping the sales in this ecomomic climate... They need to take their lumps like every other business has done to survive this economic downturn... Crashing Permit Sales and Low snow for the past 3 years is not helping the situation. Keeping the prices the same and or increasing is NOT the answer. IMO, they could drop them in half and you would see an increase in Sales by 50%. This may not adversely effect bottom line, but would increase sales, which in turn helps out in every aspect, because Volume has increased, including Volunteers. If they stay the course OFSC will be shut down soon or be limited to 1 area. Southern Ontario... But here's the kicker, the snow is not in Soutern Ontario. I have been buying permits since they were 25.00 bucks. I have seen many people quit trail clubs and these are the original people who started them up. Politics and dictatorship from OFSC has created hardships on the trail systems...


You have to remember you don't need a trail system to ride.... When I started out, the trail system was out of my reach until I got older. Alot of people that are in the sport now, only know the trail system. OFSC needs to start lobbing to the government to fix this issue..

 

[shadow44]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

Irv, gotta disagree with that quote....it's been a long time since we've had enough snow to open all 34000 kms of those trails. You have to keep in mind that the OFSC advertises that we have that many miles in trails...I'd bet we had 1/3 or that open last season...so that argument really doesn't cut it anymore. The trails in my area were listed in the yellow last season...we got 3 dumpings of snow that amounted to about 4-5" each time...not sure how they even got them listed limited as the snow only held for 3 days each time. $200 to me is nothing for the season...to me it's peanuts to ride where ever you want in the province...but that's only IF you can...all weather dependant. For the people that run 3-4 sleds for the family it's a hard pill to swallow, especially if we get squat for snow like last season. Other areas that have the same amounts of snow have cheaper trail passes...or areas that get more snow have cheaper passes...you have to admit when compared to other areas ON is an expensive place to ride....fwiw, I'm not complaining about the price...just stating a fact.

 

[Irv]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

Irv, gotta disagree with that quote....it's been a long time since we've had enough snow to open all 34000 kms of those trails. You have to keep in mind that the OFSC advertises that we have that many miles in trails...I'd bet we had 1/3 or that open last season...so that argument really doesn't cut it anymore. The trails in my area were listed in the yellow last season...we got 3 dumpings of snow that amounted to about 4-5" each time...not sure how they even got them listed limited as the snow only held for 3 days each time. $200 to me is nothing for the season...to me it's peanuts to ride where ever you want in the province...but that's only IF you can...all weather dependant. For the people that run 3-4 sleds for the family it's a hard pill to swallow, especially if we get squat for snow like last season. Other areas that have the same amounts of snow have cheaper trail passes...or areas that get more snow have cheaper passes...you have to admit when compared to other areas ON is an expensive place to ride....fwiw, I'm not complaining about the price...just stating a fact.

I agree to but what is the OFSC to do, give back refunds if all 34,000 kms of trails don't open?

I am not realy sure what other areas offer cheaper trail passes? I am sure they exist, but are they as well mapped out, is signage to our standard, do you have to follow the same rules/regs as us, is their insurance as expensive as our's etc etc etc?

Has anyone looked at the price of a Permit in Quebec lately? It was just raised another $20 bucks and is now at $340 regular and $280 early season.

I know we are not Quebec, and we could certainly learn a thing or 2 from them, but their rules/regs etc are also different than our's.

Like I said earlier, definitely some things need to change with the OFSC but nothing will get it back on track faster than a few good old CDN winters and an improvement in the economy.

 

[JROCK]

Irv you have to remember with quebec your insurance is also included in the price of the pass. Every year i say im going to buy a quebec pass and ride just there. For whatever reason i keeping hoping for a winter of snow for ontario and buy a pass early season. Last season i drove 200km in ontario and 2000km in quebec. I could save myself $300 in insurance if i would only ride in quebec. Quebec gets more snow and daily grooming. Its a tough call for most ontario people who are close to quebec to buy an ontario pass. Maybe OFSC could work in insurance as part of the pass like quebec does. Would save people alot of money on insurance and you know everyone riding who has a pass is insured.

 

[monte1214]

Irv you have to remember with quebec your insurance is also included in the price of the pass. Every year i say im going to buy a quebec pass and ride just there. For whatever reason i keeping hoping for a winter of snow for ontario and buy a pass early season. Last season i drove 200km in ontario and 2000km in quebec. I could save myself $300 in insurance if i would only ride in quebec. Quebec gets more snow and daily grooming. Its a tough call for most ontario people who are close to quebec to buy an ontario pass. Maybe OFSC could work in insurance as part of the pass like quebec does. Would save people alot of money on insurance and you know everyone riding who has a pass is insured.

- Would Insurance cover you if the sled is registered in Ontario, and insured in QC???
- What would do you do for Insurance to get from ON to QC??

 

[JROCK]

I believe the quebec insurance only cover liability to the rider in quebec. So yes if your traveling and your sled gets stolen or thrown off a cliff then your out of luck. But at least everyone would have liability out on the trail. Alot of people ride with no insurance at all.

 

[SledFreak]

I have to laugh at all the belly aching over the price of the permit!!

Are you all forgetting that it is one of the cheapest parts of snowmobiling?

Look what you pay for your sled, your insurance, your gear, your trailer, your accessories, your gas over the entire season, the list goes on and on but you all choose to gripe over a $200 permit that lets you ride over 34,000 km's of groomed trails all season long!

When was the last time any of you paid for a round of golf, or went skiing for the day or went to the movies, how cheap was that for the day?

Then think about the price of the groomers, the price of the fuel to run the groomers, the price of insurance to insure them etc etc etc, get what I am getting at?

This griping about the price of permits began the day they first came out, and it continues to this day as people still don't look at the whole picture and look what they get for $200 a season

Irv, gotta disagree with that quote....it's been a long time since we've had enough snow to open all 34000 kms of those trails. You have to keep in mind that the OFSC advertises that we have that many miles in trails...I'd bet we had 1/3 or that open last season...so that argument really doesn't cut it anymore. The trails in my area were listed in the yellow last season...we got 3 dumpings of snow that amounted to about 4-5" each time...not sure how they even got them listed limited as the snow only held for 3 days each time. $200 to me is nothing for the season...to me it's peanuts to ride where ever you want in the province...but that's only IF you can...all weather dependant. For the people that run 3-4 sleds for the family it's a hard pill to swallow, especially if we get squat for snow like last season. Other areas that have the same amounts of snow have cheaper trail passes...or areas that get more snow have cheaper passes...you have to admit when compared to other areas ON is an expensive place to ride....fwiw, I'm not complaining about the price...just stating a fact.

I agree to but what is the OFSC to do, give back refunds if all 34,000 kms of trails don't open?

I am not realy sure what other areas offer cheaper trail passes? I am sure they exist, but are they as well mapped out, is signage to our standard, do you have to follow the same rules/regs as us, is their insurance as expensive as our's etc etc etc?

Has anyone looked at the price of a Permit in Quebec lately? It was just raised another $20 bucks and is now at $340 regular and $280 early season.

I know we are not Quebec, and we could certainly learn a thing or 2 from them, but their rules/regs etc are also different than our's.

Like I said earlier, definitely some things need to change with the OFSC but nothing will get it back on track faster than a few good old CDN winters and an improvement in the economy.

Quebec includes your insurance and permit. At early season, my sled insurance and permit amounts to 560.00. Why are we paying the CEO of OFSC 300,000.00 a year to run it? Thats ludicrous... They need to remove the media, web, the magazines, etc... Their expensive media weekend trips that amount in thousand for lodging and food... They blow a third of the sales on administrative costs. IMO... They need to start with the government to take it over....