zigblazer
Veteran
I have not touched the limiter. Like I said, I don't know much specifically about sleds. I know engines, computer systems, physics, but nothing specific to sleds, all of this I've learned in the last few months. I would like to stop the darting, but one of the things I did like about this sled was the easier steering than I was use to. I need to get that back and find some compromise between easy steering and darting. Right now it still darts and is hard to steer. I think I'd rather have just the darting.
I tried bleeding the cooling system today. I lifted the back up to about 60 degrees and then the right up to about 80 degrees. I put a hose on the tube under the tank, and ran it into the tank and ran the engine. Not much happened until it ran for about 5 minutes. Then there was a steady flow out and into the tank. But the amazing thing is that it idled. No problems idling at all. I didn't remember what I left the idle speed adjustment screw at, but it stayed idling around 3,000 rpm. After I had a steady stream of fluid coming through my hose, I revved it up a bit (with the rear lifted), slowed, revved, slowed, and let it idle. It settled around 2800. Clutch was also coming all the way out when it slowed down. It is about 32 degrees out today (it was almost 40 yesterday when it wouldn't idle worth a crap), but I was working on it in the shop today, which is heated to 45. I had the door open a couple feet for fresh air, and the sled parked right next to the door. Shifted in and out of reverse perfectly, even after running a while (I believe I'll need to rebuild my primary clutch). By this time it had been running about 20 minutes, so I adjusted the idle. Backed the screw off a little, and it started slowing down right away. I only backed it out about 1 turn to get the idle to stay right about 1800 after revving. Before I had turned that screw 5-10 turns in either direction with no noticeable change, but it also wouldn't idle long enough to see any changes, I had to adjust it a turn, start it back up, rev to keep it running, and it would die about as soon as it came back to idle. After I shut it off, I checked what the temp sensors said. Intake air said 20 degrees, and coolant temp was 84 degrees (I assume Celsius where here in MN I'm use to Fahrenheit).
Never died once this whole time today. I feel like my idle problem may be related to the coolant and possible air in the system. I'm going to let it cool down all the way then try to run it again to see if I get any more air out. I'd like to know what the temp sensor says while running, but can't start it in diagnostic mode. I did check the TPS signal again, cold and hot, worked perfectly, never had a single blip away from where it should be no matter how I moved it.
I tried bleeding the cooling system today. I lifted the back up to about 60 degrees and then the right up to about 80 degrees. I put a hose on the tube under the tank, and ran it into the tank and ran the engine. Not much happened until it ran for about 5 minutes. Then there was a steady flow out and into the tank. But the amazing thing is that it idled. No problems idling at all. I didn't remember what I left the idle speed adjustment screw at, but it stayed idling around 3,000 rpm. After I had a steady stream of fluid coming through my hose, I revved it up a bit (with the rear lifted), slowed, revved, slowed, and let it idle. It settled around 2800. Clutch was also coming all the way out when it slowed down. It is about 32 degrees out today (it was almost 40 yesterday when it wouldn't idle worth a crap), but I was working on it in the shop today, which is heated to 45. I had the door open a couple feet for fresh air, and the sled parked right next to the door. Shifted in and out of reverse perfectly, even after running a while (I believe I'll need to rebuild my primary clutch). By this time it had been running about 20 minutes, so I adjusted the idle. Backed the screw off a little, and it started slowing down right away. I only backed it out about 1 turn to get the idle to stay right about 1800 after revving. Before I had turned that screw 5-10 turns in either direction with no noticeable change, but it also wouldn't idle long enough to see any changes, I had to adjust it a turn, start it back up, rev to keep it running, and it would die about as soon as it came back to idle. After I shut it off, I checked what the temp sensors said. Intake air said 20 degrees, and coolant temp was 84 degrees (I assume Celsius where here in MN I'm use to Fahrenheit).
Never died once this whole time today. I feel like my idle problem may be related to the coolant and possible air in the system. I'm going to let it cool down all the way then try to run it again to see if I get any more air out. I'd like to know what the temp sensor says while running, but can't start it in diagnostic mode. I did check the TPS signal again, cold and hot, worked perfectly, never had a single blip away from where it should be no matter how I moved it.
zigblazer
Veteran
I just can't win. Thought I had the cooling system bled. Did everything possible, and was getting no more air out while in the shop. Warmed it up to full temp and cooled down overnight 3 times. All seemed to be good. I put a funnel in the tank (so I could have the level up over the tank so it wouldn't suck it down below the top when it cooled), ran a clear hose from the bleed port into the funnel, let it cycle through each time to bleed. Temp light never came on and it idled great each time. So I drained a little out, down to the cold fill line when it cooled again, put the cap on and started it. It went right back to having the temp light on for the first 20 seconds of running, like before I spent a week bleeding it. Idled great on cold start up like before so I took it out.
Took it for a ride around the property (5 min after warming up). When I stopped it wouldn't stay idling again, died after 10 seconds again, but the coolant stayed good, so I thought it might have just been a fluke. Saturday I took it for a long ride since every time I test the TPS now, it never misses a beat. Temp light came on for the first 20 seconds again, then off, never to come on again on the ride. Took it for the longest ride, 143 miles. Running down the trail it ran almost perfect, for maybe 2 minutes it missed at part throttle, then back to running perfect. But every time I stopped it would die after about 10 seconds, just wouldn't stay idling. Got back home, put it back in the shop.
Parts came yesterday, so I went out to put the TPS, lower ball joints, and outer tie rod ends into it. I found the coolant low again, not really low, but nothing in the tank, added less that a pint with bleeding to bring it back to full cold line. Temp light never came back on while riding either. Feels like it might have a head gasket leak. I'm not sure if a bad head gasket or cracked head is common on these, or if this is how it presents, but that is what it feels like. Hopefully with the new TPS, my weird misses will stop. Adjusted it to 15-95%.
I had put the toe back how it was, and the darting got much better. Will need to get out on the trails one more time to see how it does with the new parts on it. I am going to shorten the limiter strap tomorrow, it is on the longest set of holes (and loose) now to see how that effects the steering. Reverse hasn't changed. Even with the clutches clean it still will rarely go into reverse after riding, but will every time right after you start it up. Belt sits just below the top on the secondary, no creep with the back off the ground, even when it idles at 2300.
Is this how a head gasket would present with this engine? Are there other possible causes? How much do you need to take apart to do a head gasket?
Took it for a ride around the property (5 min after warming up). When I stopped it wouldn't stay idling again, died after 10 seconds again, but the coolant stayed good, so I thought it might have just been a fluke. Saturday I took it for a long ride since every time I test the TPS now, it never misses a beat. Temp light came on for the first 20 seconds again, then off, never to come on again on the ride. Took it for the longest ride, 143 miles. Running down the trail it ran almost perfect, for maybe 2 minutes it missed at part throttle, then back to running perfect. But every time I stopped it would die after about 10 seconds, just wouldn't stay idling. Got back home, put it back in the shop.
Parts came yesterday, so I went out to put the TPS, lower ball joints, and outer tie rod ends into it. I found the coolant low again, not really low, but nothing in the tank, added less that a pint with bleeding to bring it back to full cold line. Temp light never came back on while riding either. Feels like it might have a head gasket leak. I'm not sure if a bad head gasket or cracked head is common on these, or if this is how it presents, but that is what it feels like. Hopefully with the new TPS, my weird misses will stop. Adjusted it to 15-95%.
I had put the toe back how it was, and the darting got much better. Will need to get out on the trails one more time to see how it does with the new parts on it. I am going to shorten the limiter strap tomorrow, it is on the longest set of holes (and loose) now to see how that effects the steering. Reverse hasn't changed. Even with the clutches clean it still will rarely go into reverse after riding, but will every time right after you start it up. Belt sits just below the top on the secondary, no creep with the back off the ground, even when it idles at 2300.
Is this how a head gasket would present with this engine? Are there other possible causes? How much do you need to take apart to do a head gasket?
Mooseman
I'm not all knowing. Post your question in forum.
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The temp light on when cold started is normal. It's to tell you to wait until it's warmed up, when it goes out, before you use the sled.
You may have just had a bit more air come out. After a couple of times, you should be good.
When I had a bad head gasket on my GT (3 cyl), it puked coolant out of the overflow hose whenever I went full throttle. If you don't see evidence of coolant out that hose or the exhaust doesn't smell, I think your head is fine.
I think it's a good idea to have a temp gauge. Check out the install I did on my MP:
ty4stroke.com
You may have just had a bit more air come out. After a couple of times, you should be good.
When I had a bad head gasket on my GT (3 cyl), it puked coolant out of the overflow hose whenever I went full throttle. If you don't see evidence of coolant out that hose or the exhaust doesn't smell, I think your head is fine.
I think it's a good idea to have a temp gauge. Check out the install I did on my MP:
Temp gauge install
I installed this gauge and used a hose adapter that worked very well. I like this gauge because it has both temp and voltage even though it is in Celsius and there is Chinese writing on it (I have no idea what it says). Before installing, I checked which radiator hose to use to ensure I...
zigblazer
Veteran
I'll have to look into the temp gauge. I've seen no indications of mine overheating. No signs of massive or forceful coolant loss either. It could be slowly pushing out and me not noticing. The vent line from the tank exits at the bottom just inside the lower RH cover, and the light yellow amsoil antifreeze I put in could go unnoticed if it was slowly being pushed out. I have had to bleed and top off the tank after every ride so far since I flushed the cooling system. That is why I figured I needed to do a better job of bleeding it, thought there was trapped air somewhere that was expanding and pushing some out. Didn't change anything. Still needed to add a little. Either it has trapped air, which I find hard to believe at this point, or it has a leak that is slowly building pressure to push out coolant. My pressure tester doesn't completely seal, so I have to hold it tight. I am able to pressure test it to 10 psi, but can only hold it a couple minutes before I get tired, and it holds pressure at least for that time.
zigblazer
Veteran
We have been getting just above freezing during the day for a couple weeks now, but keep getting snow to fill in for the melting. I'm not sure if I should be glad our season keeps getting extended, or not because the sled still won't work correctly. I think the older I get, the less I deal with things not working the way they should. Time to stop buying old used up cheap stuff I guess. Couple inches of snow expected tomorrow night, 4-8 down near Duluth. Then 4-8 here next week and 8-12 down in Duluth. Have a ride planned for Friday, but might get one more "last ride" again next week. I've been riding with a friend that lives in Duluth, so most of our rides have been between here and Duluth.
zigblazer
Veteran
I was wrong. The limiter strap was on the tightest already. Bottom bolts don't do the adjusting. Will just need to see how the new parts do, then check valve clearances when I know I'm done riding for the season and hope I don't have a head gasket leaking.
zigblazer
Veteran
I'm back. If you've read my other thread on the head gasket, you are mostly up to date. I ended up buying a new ski-doo, mostly because I had a financial opportunity that would not come back around later. Probably not the best idea in the year with the least snow I can remember since Iraq, but I picked it up in December when I was still hopeful for the season. I've managed to put a whopping 60 miles on it. The idea is for my kids (firstly my 13 year old daughter) to be able to ride with me. On the Yamaha, because it will work much better for her than the polaris.
Anyway, I did one more ride in the end of march last year, and found things to suggest a possible head gasket leak. So I replaced the head gasket, and had the head checked over by a machine shop. I think he just lapped the valves, replaced the seals, and surfaced the sealing surface. Once together it seemed to run perfectly. Once we got some snow (in January), I tested it out in our fields. Ran perfect for me and when I let my daughter ride it. Only put on a half dozen miles though, with no real problems. Then it sat again waiting on a time we could go out, but we didn't get any more snow. It has been warm (above freezing) out this last week, with rain today, and expected all day tomorrow, then back below freezing we go. I didn't want it freeze to the ground so I ran it, took it around the field, and parked it in my shop. Problem was, it died while warming up.
I was away from it for about 15 minutes after I started it, and when I got back to it, it wasn't running. It was warm, and so must have run for a little bit. It started hard and wouldn't idle worth a crap. Likely only idling on one cylinder. I took it for a spin around the field, but every time I stopped, it died, and was difficult to get started again. I can't have my daughter take it on a trail ride like this. While pulling it into the shop, it briefly idled perfectly, like for 5 seconds. That told me there was an intermittent problem, not likely mechanical. It still seemed to run well and have good power at higher rpm. After it cooled down, I checked coolant and oil again. Both were perfect, so at least one problem appears to have stayed fixed.
I went back out today to see what it would do, check sensor readings, and get a video of it running. As usual, it started great (besides the 5 seconds of cranking before it fires). Idled very smooth, but I did notice the occasional misfire. I let it warm up while getting stuff out, and listening. As soon as it started running rough and misfiring, I went over, but it died before I got to it from 20 feet away. I checked all the sensor readings, all looked normal. I started it and got a couple videos of it running with RPMs. It won't let me start it while in diagnostic mode. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong there or what, but I even tried jumping the starter relay, still it wouldn't fire.
My best guess is a bad coil. The only way I can think of to test that is to warm it up, and try unplugging a coil while it is running rough. My second best guess is bad wiring, such as a bad connection or chewed wire. Also possible is a sensor malfunction, such as the map, temp, or crank sensors. Could be a faulty ecm or injectors. Problem is coils are too darn expensive to replace as a guess and I've already put too much money into this sled.
I really want to like this snowmobile, but I've hit a point in my life where I don't deal well with things not working the way they are suppose to. I think it has great power and efficiency. Seat ride comfort is great compared to the polaris (although the polaris just got a new seat cover and cushion.)
If anyone has any other suggestions, or good ways to check my possible problems, please let me know. If I can't get it fixed, I might start calling around to dealers to see if anyone has a mechanic with experience with these. But I really have spent enough money on it and don't want to spend a bunch more for diagnostics.
Anyway, I did one more ride in the end of march last year, and found things to suggest a possible head gasket leak. So I replaced the head gasket, and had the head checked over by a machine shop. I think he just lapped the valves, replaced the seals, and surfaced the sealing surface. Once together it seemed to run perfectly. Once we got some snow (in January), I tested it out in our fields. Ran perfect for me and when I let my daughter ride it. Only put on a half dozen miles though, with no real problems. Then it sat again waiting on a time we could go out, but we didn't get any more snow. It has been warm (above freezing) out this last week, with rain today, and expected all day tomorrow, then back below freezing we go. I didn't want it freeze to the ground so I ran it, took it around the field, and parked it in my shop. Problem was, it died while warming up.
I was away from it for about 15 minutes after I started it, and when I got back to it, it wasn't running. It was warm, and so must have run for a little bit. It started hard and wouldn't idle worth a crap. Likely only idling on one cylinder. I took it for a spin around the field, but every time I stopped, it died, and was difficult to get started again. I can't have my daughter take it on a trail ride like this. While pulling it into the shop, it briefly idled perfectly, like for 5 seconds. That told me there was an intermittent problem, not likely mechanical. It still seemed to run well and have good power at higher rpm. After it cooled down, I checked coolant and oil again. Both were perfect, so at least one problem appears to have stayed fixed.
I went back out today to see what it would do, check sensor readings, and get a video of it running. As usual, it started great (besides the 5 seconds of cranking before it fires). Idled very smooth, but I did notice the occasional misfire. I let it warm up while getting stuff out, and listening. As soon as it started running rough and misfiring, I went over, but it died before I got to it from 20 feet away. I checked all the sensor readings, all looked normal. I started it and got a couple videos of it running with RPMs. It won't let me start it while in diagnostic mode. I don't know if I'm doing something wrong there or what, but I even tried jumping the starter relay, still it wouldn't fire.
My best guess is a bad coil. The only way I can think of to test that is to warm it up, and try unplugging a coil while it is running rough. My second best guess is bad wiring, such as a bad connection or chewed wire. Also possible is a sensor malfunction, such as the map, temp, or crank sensors. Could be a faulty ecm or injectors. Problem is coils are too darn expensive to replace as a guess and I've already put too much money into this sled.
I really want to like this snowmobile, but I've hit a point in my life where I don't deal well with things not working the way they are suppose to. I think it has great power and efficiency. Seat ride comfort is great compared to the polaris (although the polaris just got a new seat cover and cushion.)
If anyone has any other suggestions, or good ways to check my possible problems, please let me know. If I can't get it fixed, I might start calling around to dealers to see if anyone has a mechanic with experience with these. But I really have spent enough money on it and don't want to spend a bunch more for diagnostics.
How old was the gas in it? My Phazer always requires Premium FRESH gas to run best. I bet a plug fouled.
74Nitro
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What are the stored codes?
zigblazer
Veteran
Gas was fresh last april, with stabilizer. And that won't cause an intermittent problem with fuel injection. Only stored code was for crank sensor, from when I first got it back together and had the crank sensor plug mixed up with another. Plugs were new last winter, and still looked new when I put them back in this summer. The 4 strokes don't foul plugs likea 2 stroke. Plugs I replaced didn't look too bad and were original. Fouled plug won't cause an intermittent problem like this either.
74Nitro
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What's the mileage on this machine?
zigblazer
Veteran
A little over 10,000 now.
74Nitro
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I'd be looking at the wires right close the the coils and also the pressure sensors. They've been known to break. Also check the female terminals at the harness for the coil plugs.
I've been working on Yamahas ever since the four strokes came out in 2003 and I have yet to see one failed coil on any of them.
Sometimes if the problem doesn't show up long enough the computer won't pick it up as an error. But it should eventually.
I've been working on Yamahas ever since the four strokes came out in 2003 and I have yet to see one failed coil on any of them.
Sometimes if the problem doesn't show up long enough the computer won't pick it up as an error. But it should eventually.
zigblazer
Veteran
I'll have to pull the gas tank tomorrow and check the coil plugs again. I will also load test the wiring to see if there are any weak spots that might be causing the problem while I'm at it. I've had the map sensors off several times, and don't remember seeing anything broken, but will take a good look tomorrow as well.
If you think bad gas won’t effect a Fuel injected 4stroke you are going to be having a lot of problems in future because it does and is very common. Try disconnecting one coil at a time to see if in fact it is one cylinder having a miss. Then swap coils and see if the issue follows the coil. If not then swap plugs and see if it follows plug.
