2020 Release

[20/80]

I wonder if Yamaha is listening?

 

[Sasquatch]

Totally believable because of all the exclamation marks! Just breaking your balls Sasquatch!

Here is my take and I don't know anybody and have not been to a stealership for a couple years. But I do know that Yamaha had no choice but to step into the agreement with Arctic Cat. I was not ideal but necessary for survival. That being said, the sooner Yamaha is able to stand on their own the better off they will be. If the partnership approach/strategy was ideal, then everyone would be doing it. Ski-Doo doesn't do it, Polaris doesn't do it in their snowmobile divisions. They each sell more sleds in one year than Yamaha does in 5 years. Why? Because they build what the majority of snowmobilers want. They let product demand drive their business and Yamaha decided that they knew better than the customer and built nothing but 4-stroke sleds. Turned out, that was only about 25% of the market. That's as far as Yamaha was able to take the 4-stroke market until it got a boost from Ski-Doos 4-Stroke. That was a huge mistake by Yamaha and to this day, unfortunately, they have not and will not recover, in my opinion, until they offer their own 2-stroke and 4-stroke sleds. The current arrangement between AC and Yamaha is not sustainable for Yamaha long term. If Yamaha does not start making their own 2-stroke engines, they are done as a snowmobile manufacture. Some will say they are already done as a snowmobile manufacture and they just produce engines. In six months we will know for sure if they are serious about building complete snowmobiles, engines only, or buying out AC. Just my .02

Yamahas "mistake" to go four stroke only was based on emissions that they/we where all told where coming. Every so many years tighter and tighter! It would have involved Catalytic converters to control emissions and meet the standards that where coming. Something the two strokes would have been hard pressed to control. All of a sudden it seems that someone convinced them to change their mind. So Yamahas mistake was to get ahead of the curve and for Yamaha that was something because they wait forever to change. I am amazed that emissions have not tightened up and seem to be forgotten about for sleds. What happened?

If the emissions had tightened to where they where supposed to go Yamaha would have had a huge advantage and the others would have been playing catch up! Early 2000's emissions are top priority for sleds, Yamaha makes its jump. When everyone said it would fail Yamaha proved 4S will work. Even the competition built 4S to stop Yamaha theft of customers.

So here we are almost 20 years later and emissions are almost not even mentioned or worried about. So because of that I say Yamaha's mistake was not as much 2S as you say but more a Chassis problem. The Nytro was a dud in the market and with the others building better chassis and lighter powerplants it just showed that 4S where never going to compete other then maybe on a groomed trail touring. The Apex which was a perfect trail sled was not built to compete with the lightweight Doo. The fact that the Doo was a disposable sled was lost on the buyer.

Now lets say Yamaha kept the 700 SRX engine and bumped it to 800 or more! It would have struggled in the Delta box chassis and been useless against the Doo. In the old pre delta box it would not compete either. So they needed a new chassis to replace the deltabox first and foremost, if they would have made a chassis say like the Cat chassis they buy now and ran thier engines in it they would not have been where they are today. Its that slow to change problem Yamaha has. They leap, then they sit. One killer chassis would have had Yamaha in the mix even with or without the 2S. The move to 4S was not the problem its made out to be. Not rolling with the punches is.

See no exclamations marks. Don't like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Sasquatch]

I strongly agree with this! I have been saying this for awhile now. The 2 stroke market is too strong to not have a 2 stroke in your line up. I really believe if Yamaha had a 2 Stroke mountain sled that they would sell way more then they do now. I'm on a bunch of sledding Facebook pages and I can tell you at least 75% of the people talk trash or say a 4 stroke sled is not for them so clearly the 2 stroke market is stronger then ever. Why doesn't Yamaha listen to what people want? it just like you said, Ski-doo and Polaris actually listen to the market and that's why they lead it. Why cant Yamaha get over themselves and do the same?

Everyone talks trash! I have to wonder if 25% of the people want a 4S and Yamaha built the best. Then why do they not have 25% of the market? If 75% want 2S then why does Cat not have a larger Market share? The reason Doo is where they are is because of the Chassis! They build 4S engines for that chassis to draw Yamaha riders to them, when Yamaha had a better engine! They are out selling Yamaha with a 900 ACE and will pull even more with a 900T. So if Yamaha put a 2S Cat engine in their lineup would that line them up at the door?

 

[Mototown]

You can thank the oil companies & American auto companies paying off the American governments in place for not going through with emissions standards...lol

 

[gamemaster]

Port Yamaha is now selling cat. Interesting!!

 

[stevewithOCD]

You can thank the oil companies & American auto companies paying off the American governments in place for not going through with emissions standards...lol

I guess Harley Davidson forgot to put money in that pot since the gov't is suing them for not meeting emissions.

 

[stevewithOCD]

You can thank the oil companies & American auto companies paying off the American governments in place for not going through with emissions standards...lol

The Japs didn't realize that in this country people can be paid to change their mind..............and their vote!

 

[Deeppow16]

Yamahas "mistake" to go four stroke only was based on emissions that they/we where all told where coming. Every so many years tighter and tighter! It would have involved Catalytic converters to control emissions and meet the standards that where coming. Something the two strokes would have been hard pressed to control. All of a sudden it seems that someone convinced them to change their mind. So Yamahas mistake was to get ahead of the curve and for Yamaha that was something because they wait forever to change. I am amazed that emissions have not tightened up and seem to be forgotten about for sleds. What happened?

If the emissions had tightened to where they where supposed to go Yamaha would have had a huge advantage and the others would have been playing catch up! Early 2000's emissions are top priority for sleds, Yamaha makes its jump. When everyone said it would fail Yamaha proved 4S will work. Even the competition built 4S to stop Yamaha theft of customers.

So here we are almost 20 years later and emissions are almost not even mentioned or worried about. So because of that I say Yamaha's mistake was not as much 2S as you say but more a Chassis problem. The Nytro was a dud in the market and with the others building better chassis and lighter powerplants it just showed that 4S where never going to compete other then maybe on a groomed trail touring. The Apex which was a perfect trail sled was not built to compete with the lightweight Doo. The fact that the Doo was a disposable sled was lost on the buyer.

Now lets say Yamaha kept the 700 SRX engine and bumped it to 800 or more! It would have struggled in the Delta box chassis and been useless against the Doo. In the old pre delta box it would not compete either. So they needed a new chassis to replace the deltabox first and foremost, if they would have made a chassis say like the Cat chassis they buy now and ran thier engines in it they would not have been where they are today. Its that slow to change problem Yamaha has. They leap, then they sit. One killer chassis would have had Yamaha in the mix even with or without the 2S. The move to 4S was not the problem its made out to be. Not rolling with the punches is.

See no exclamations marks. Don't like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think your right about Yamaha always sitting back and letting the product roll. If they were more like ski-doo or POO where they were always updating and changing things then maybe Yamaha would be sitting better(more market share). Ski-doo figured out how to get their 4 stroke in a great chassis why couldn't Yamaha do that? I thought Japen engineers were supposed to be smart? Apparently all they know is engines. You would think that if you can design and build some of the best engines on the planet that you could design and build a killer chassis but I guess that wasn't the case. Its time for Yamaha to step up to the plate and give us the best products we have ever seen from them.

 

[whitedust1]

I wonder if Yamaha is listening?

Bahahabahaha yeah sure they listen and then do whatever the bean counters tell them to do like inventory reduction. I saw plenty of Viper, Sidewinder inventory and a SRX yesterday at Pat’s and was told plenty still out there in snowless areas.

 

[T-Bone]

Everyone talks trash! I have to wonder if 25% of the people want a 4S and Yamaha built the best. Then why do they not have 25% of the market? If 75% want 2S then why does Cat not have a larger Market share? The reason Doo is where they are is because of the Chassis! They build 4S engines for that chassis to draw Yamaha riders to them, when Yamaha had a better engine! They are out selling Yamaha with a 900 ACE and will pull even more with a 900T. So if Yamaha put a 2S Cat engine in their lineup would that line them up at the door?

Sasquatch, consumers don’t buy engines or chassis, they buy complete snowmobiles. Snowmobile manufacture have to develop both engines and chassis to keep up with consumer trends and new technologies if they want to stay in the business. Yamaha’s position after sales started to drop were that they were not going invest in sled development unless they could get a return on their investment. Well if your “latest sled offerings” are 10 year old technology do you think you are going to sell enough of the old tech to warrant investment in the new tech? That answer is obvious. So Yamaha ended up in this death spiral until forced into the relationship with AC.

Yamaha’s decision to go complete 4-stroke based on tightening emissions standards was a completely irresponsible business decision. Regulations change all the time. Yamaha is known for making PREMIER engines and they couldn’t continue developing both 4-stroke and 2-strokes like the other manufactures? The manufactures that did continue development and built what customers were demanding thrived even though world wide sled sales decreased. Yamaha thought they were smarter than their customers and tried forcing their ideas of what a sled should be down everyone’s throat.

I’ve owned three Apex based machines and they were great for groomed trail riding which is what I do, but you could not give them away to people riding the mountains, off-trail boondocking, or ditchbangers. What Yamaha did would be like Ski-Doo trying to survive off of only selling 900ACE and 600ACE variants.

WRT your statement that you used no exclamation points...better go check again but there is at least one used and it’s in the first sentence!! LOL.

 

[Deeppow16]

Sasquatch, consumers don’t buy engines or chassis, they buy complete snowmobiles. Snowmobile manufacture have to develop both engines and chassis to keep up with consumer trends and new technologies if they want to stay in the business. Yamaha’s position after sales started to drop were that they were not going invest in sled development unless they could get a return on their investment. Well if your “latest sled offerings” are 10 year old technology do you think you are going to sell enough of the old tech to warrant investment in the new tech? That answer is obvious. So Yamaha ended up in this death spiral until forced into the relationship with AC.

Yamaha’s decision to go complete 4-stroke based on tightening emissions standards was a completely irresponsible business decision. Regulations change all the time. Yamaha is known for making PREMIER engines and they couldn’t continue developing both 4-stroke and 2-strokes like the other manufactures? The manufactures that did continue development and built what customers were demanding thrived even though world wide sled sales decreased. Yamaha thought they were smarter than their customers and tried forcing their ideas of what a sled should be down everyone’s throat.

I’ve owned three Apex based machines and they were great for groomed trail riding which is what I do, but you could not give them away to people riding the mountains, off-trail boondocking, or ditchbangers. What Yamaha did would be like Ski-Doo trying to survive off of only selling 900ACE and 600ACE variants.

WRT your statement that you used no exclamation points...better go check again but there is at least one used and it’s in the first sentence!! LOL.

Yamaha gambled and lost big time but you would think that they would try and fix that but clearly not! Like you said thought Yamaha has great trail sleds but that's pretty much it until just a few years ago they started figuring out the backcountry thing( with AC help). Yamaha really NEEDS to start listening to the market trends or I fear the worst.

 

[biffdotorg]

Doo is on that path with a 600, 900 with a 900 t all same engine! Just sayin!

Doo did do this right. And better yet, the Ace 900 used in the SeaDoo Spark is literally identical (unlike the 600 having one less cylinder than the 900) The Spark has two different levels of hp and it is only a tune! The aftermarket allows for three levels of NA HP with a tune. I think they are 60/90/110hp on the same engine. It's locked down with the tuner and a code. So they get a pretty penny and I think it is very difficult to pirate. But I think that is genius marketing and production.

I'm sure it pisses off consumers once they realize they have paid two different prices, but such is the market when talking literally software!! HA! Yamaha could do this with the 998 easily. Rental shops would love to rent these detuned as well.

 

[biffdotorg]

As far as emissions, I think Yamaha didn't believe that the others could get a 2-stroke up to emissions. BRP did it with the ETEC acquisition. Unlike when we follow Arctic Cat 2-strokes, the smell and exhaust behind an ETEC is nowhere near the same.

If you use Yellowstone as a measuring stick, they are saying that BRP has done 4-strokes better as well. BAT or Best Available Technology lists the ACE engines as an acceptable 4-stroke for touring Yellowstone park. I don't believe any Yamaha is on the approved list anymore. Obviously that's noise and emissions at a grand level, but as far as emissions on any other trail in the US, most 2-strokes are up to snuff. So the emission debate went away when MFG's started playing ball with 2 and 4 stroke. I could be wrong.

 

[Monster Max]

Yamaha is still BAT certified with it's carryover 2018 Venture and that engine produces a 1/3 less carbon monoxide that the ace engines. Don't know what will happen in 2020 as there are no 19 models approved.

 

[Mototown]

If Yamaha & artic cat come out with all new chassis in 2020 , what would sell more 2 stroke sleds ??? A sled with a Yamaha 2 stroke or a artic cat 2 stroke ?? Artic cat doesn't have the technology to reconfigure motors & up size to 850 cc motors quickly. Yamaha has the power to come up with motors they need .... I think a 600 & 850 are coming...