2020 Release

[T-Bone]

If Yamaha & artic cat come out with all new chassis in 2020 , what would sell more 2 stroke sleds ??? A sled with a Yamaha 2 stroke or a artic cat 2 stroke ?? Artic cat doesn't have the technology to reconfigure motors & up size to 850 cc motors quickly. Yamaha has the power to come up with motors they need .... I think a 600 & 850 are coming...

At first I think the AC would sell more because they currently have a 2-stroke following and Yamaha would surpass them in year three. Just a guess really. A 600 2-stroke makes too much sense for them not to have one. It is the heart of the marketing would generate more sales than Yamaha has seen in a long time. More sales equals more money for future sled development. IMO they HAVE to do at least this if they want to survive.

 

[Deeppow16]

At first I think the AC would sell more because they currently have a 2-stroke following and Yamaha would surpass them in year three. Just a guess really. A 600 2-stroke makes too much sense for them not to have one. It is the heart of the marketing would generate more sales than Yamaha has seen in a long time. More sales equals more money for future sled development. IMO they HAVE to do at least this if they want to survive.

Yup they NEED to put a 2 stroke in their line up to keep going. There is too much demand that they are missing out on.

 

[Wannaviper]

It seems that everyone has decided that Yamaha's decision to go with 4 stroke engines over 2 strokes was wrong, and that Yamaha's current position at the bottom of the pile is due to that mistake. Honestly, I think that the decision to go with 4-strokes was 100% correct. Where Yamaha fell down was that they did not develop a competitive chassis for their engines. If Yamaha had stayed with 2-strokes and built delta-box sleds like the Vector and Apex, they would already be out of the snowmobile business. What made me switch to Yamaha from Polaris was that sweet little 1049 cc 4-stroke engine in the Vector. If the Vector had been a 2-stroke, I would still be riding Polaris sleds.

So while I agree that Yamaha has made mistakes in its' snowmobile production, I believe its' biggest mistake was not staying ahead of the competition with chassis design. I don't have numbers to prove it, but my "seat of the pants" feeling is that Yamaha's alliance with AC ended up with a big boost in Yamaha sales. I know that in the few short years the Viper has been out, I have seen many more Vipers on the trails than I ever saw Vectors or Apexes. Once Yamaha had a decent chassis for its 4-stroke engine, they became "relevant" to the snowmobile world again.

So a Yamaha 2-stroke would be nice, and it would probably sell, but what will ultimately seal the fate of Yamaha snowmobiling will be the chassis that their engines sit in.

 

[Deeppow16]

It seems that everyone has decided that Yamaha's decision to go with 4 stroke engines over 2 strokes was wrong, and that Yamaha's current position at the bottom of the pile is due to that mistake. Honestly, I think that the decision to go with 4-strokes was 100% correct. Where Yamaha fell down was that they did not develop a competitive chassis for their engines. If Yamaha had stayed with 2-strokes and built delta-box sleds like the Vector and Apex, they would already be out of the snowmobile business. What made me switch to Yamaha from Polaris was that sweet little 1049 cc 4-stroke engine in the Vector. If the Vector had been a 2-stroke, I would still be riding Polaris sleds.

So while I agree that Yamaha has made mistakes in its' snowmobile production, I believe its' biggest mistake was not staying ahead of the competition with chassis design. I don't have numbers to prove it, but my "seat of the pants" feeling is that Yamaha's alliance with AC ended up with a big boost in Yamaha sales. I know that in the few short years the Viper has been out, I have seen many more Vipers on the trails than I ever saw Vectors or Apexes. Once Yamaha had a decent chassis for its 4-stroke engine, they became "relevant" to the snowmobile world again.

So a Yamaha 2-stroke would be nice, and it would probably sell, but what will ultimately seal the fate of Yamaha snowmobiling will be the chassis that their engines sit in.

If Yamaha would have kept a 2 stroke who says they would have used the delta box chassis to put it in? They had the make that chassis to fit a 4 cylinder engine in it! 2 strokes are much smaller in all directions so they wouldn't have needed to make a chassis that wide to fit one. Now I'm not saying this would have been the case but I would sure hope that Yamaha would have been smart enough to realize that!

 

[T-Bone]

It seems that everyone has decided that Yamaha's decision to go with 4 stroke engines over 2 strokes was wrong, and that Yamaha's current position at the bottom of the pile is due to that mistake. Honestly, I think that the decision to go with 4-strokes was 100% correct. Where Yamaha fell down was that they did not develop a competitive chassis for their engines. If Yamaha had stayed with 2-strokes and built delta-box sleds like the Vector and Apex, they would already be out of the snowmobile business. What made me switch to Yamaha from Polaris was that sweet little 1049 cc 4-stroke engine in the Vector. If the Vector had been a 2-stroke, I would still be riding Polaris sleds.

So while I agree that Yamaha has made mistakes in its' snowmobile production, I believe its' biggest mistake was not staying ahead of the competition with chassis design. I don't have numbers to prove it, but my "seat of the pants" feeling is that Yamaha's alliance with AC ended up with a big boost in Yamaha sales. I know that in the few short years the Viper has been out, I have seen many more Vipers on the trails than I ever saw Vectors or Apexes. Once Yamaha had a decent chassis for its 4-stroke engine, they became "relevant" to the snowmobile world again.

So a Yamaha 2-stroke would be nice, and it would probably sell, but what will ultimately seal the fate of Yamaha snowmobiling will be the chassis that their engines sit in.

The only thing I disagree with you on is that I'm not making it an either/or decision for Yamaha. They should have continued development of both 2-stroke and 4-strokes and appropriate chassis for each. Even if they have the best chassis for their 4-Stroke only line-up, they are still only going to appeal to 30-35% of the market. Even if you assume the 4-stroke market is expanding to 40-45%, they are still leaving 55-60% on the table.

I totally agree with you that any of their engines in a quality chassis, and I'll add with exceptional fit and finish, makes a great sled. Yamaha needs to control all three (engine, chassis, and fit & finish) to be relevant again.

 

[cannondale27]

The only thing I disagree with you on is that I'm not making it an either/or decision for Yamaha. They should have continued development of both 2-stroke and 4-strokes and appropriate chassis for each. Even if they have the best chassis for their 4-Stroke only line-up, they are still only going to appeal to 30-35% of the market. Even if you assume the 4-stroke market is expanding to 40-45%, they are still leaving 55-60% on the table.

I totally agree with you that any of their engines in a quality chassis, and I'll add with exceptional fit and finish, makes a great sled. Yamaha needs to control all three (engine, chassis, and fit & finish) to be relevant again.

I liked this but very sadly I admit they do not need to control all 3. At least not short term. They can sell you a half breed and then even short change you on Parts heck even motor. Then they can hang you out to dry on aftersale care factory level. You know how I know this? Because that’s what they did and were successful. Yamaha should be ashamed but you know what. The others are worse. Thank God for good dealers, This site and any that give a damn.

 

[blueironranger]

Have to spend R&D money on 3 different chassis is what probably put them behind. One has to wonder that they could have done if the had put all the efforts into 1 chassis instead? Hell, even if the Phazer and Nytro had shared a chassis, it’s odd how similar they are but nothing interchanges? We know the 998T and 1049 or 998na will be around so a unified chassis makes sense. What other engines are to come, who knows but that 847 wolverine engine is beefy and held back by a restrictive exhaust and torque based cam profile, It could be made to pump out 90hp+ in a sled application. BRP sells a lot of ACE900 sleds.

 

[Wannaviper]

I am not saying that Yamaha had to go with one or the other, 2 or 4-stroke; but they chose to go 4-stroke, and that would have been fine if they had kept up with the rest of the industry in chassis development. Lets face it, the best thing about the Apex and Vector were the engines; they were and still are just sweet, powerful engines that perform like you expect a Yamaha to perform. Unfortunately, Yamaha got left behind in the chassis design and development phase. The delta-box chassis worked fine on groomed trails, but it is terrible when the trails get rough. Rider forward positioning is simply better for rough trails and off-trail riding. Yamaha tried to catch up with the Phazer and the Nytro, but their effort was using a band aid when they needed major surgery. I never rode a Nytro, but from everything I have read, they were problematic, and the design was not a commercial success. Let's face it, if they had come out with a "Viper" rather than the "Nytro," they would have sold a lot more sleds. I actually own a Phazer, but it was designed for the beginner market, 500 cc class sled, and in all honesty, it is not a sled that I would put a beginner on. It's design has a lot of flaws, and once again, the chassis design did not compare favorably with its competition. I doubt that anyone would claim that the Phazer was much of a commercial success either.

If Yamaha had put the effort ($$$$) into R&D of a chassis that could compete with Polaris, Skidoo and AC designs, I think that they would have held their own on market share, even though they were exclusively 4-stroke. Let's face it, everyone on this forum presumably went to a 4-stroke sled, and did so for a reason. My reason was that I loved the 4-stroke power, the sound, and even the smell (or lack thereof), not to mention 4-stroke dependability and longevity. I also liked a yearly oil change rather than buying and carrying gallons of expensive 2-stroke oil every year. I went to Yamaha even though it was in a chassis that was years behind the competition, BECAUSE IT WAS A 4-STROKE! If Yamaha had its 4-stroke engines in a chassis that were truly competitive with the best that Skidoo and Polaris produce, we would see 4-strokes take a much bigger market share.

 

[cannondale27]

I am not saying that Yamaha had to go with one or the other, 2 or 4-stroke; but they chose to go 4-stroke, and that would have been fine if they had kept up with the rest of the industry in chassis development. Lets face it, the best thing about the Apex and Vector were the engines; they were and still are just sweet, powerful engines that perform like you expect a Yamaha to perform. Unfortunately, Yamaha got left behind in the chassis design and development phase. The delta-box chassis worked fine on groomed trails, but it is terrible when the trails get rough. Rider forward positioning is simply better for rough trails and off-trail riding. Yamaha tried to catch up with the Phazer and the Nytro, but their effort was using a band aid when they needed major surgery. I never rode a Nytro, but from everything I have read, they were problematic, and the design was not a commercial success. Let's face it, if they had come out with a "Viper" rather than the "Nytro," they would have sold a lot more sleds. I actually own a Phazer, but it was designed for the beginner market, 500 cc class sled, and in all honesty, it is not a sled that I would put a beginner on. It's design has a lot of flaws, and once again, the chassis design did not compare favorably with its competition. I doubt that anyone would claim that the Phazer was much of a commercial success either.

If Yamaha had put the effort ($$$$) into R&D of a chassis that could compete with Polaris, Skidoo and AC designs, I think that they would have held their own on market share, even though they were exclusively 4-stroke. Let's face it, everyone on this forum presumably went to a 4-stroke sled, and did so for a reason. My reason was that I loved the 4-stroke power, the sound, and even the smell (or lack thereof), not to mention 4-stroke dependability and longevity. I also liked a yearly oil change rather than buying and carrying gallons of expensive 2-stroke oil every year. I went to Yamaha even though it was in a chassis that was years behind the competition, BECAUSE IT WAS A 4-STROKE! If Yamaha had its 4-stroke engines in a chassis that were truly competitive with the best that Skidoo and Polaris produce, we would see 4-strokes take a much bigger market share.

Yamaha has been behind in chassis/suspension since the original Phazer. That was the end. Ever since I will swear they purposely have made their sleds ride like crap compared to other brands to slow us down and therefore cut warranty costs. You cant tell me the Prototypes ride like production since most times its just a matter of valving in shocks not the actual design. R&D is in Minocqua,WI anyone who has ridden that area on a busy weekend knows there is no way they let something like that happen. Its Corporate.

 

[Vmax]

Yamaha has been behind in chassis/suspension since the original Phazer. That was the end. Ever since I will swear they purposely have made their sleds ride like crap compared to other brands to slow us down and therefore cut warranty costs. You cant tell me the Prototypes ride like production since most times its just a matter of valving in shocks not the actual design. R&D is in Minocqua,WI anyone who has ridden that area on a busy weekend knows there is no way they let something like that happen. Its Corporate.

You had me until you said "I will swear they purposely have made their sleds ride like crap compared to other brands to slow us down" They produce the fastest sled in the world with the Sidewinder ssooooo not sure about that comment. Anyway, IMO Yamaha have been brain storming over this for years and have a game plan put in place. Will it be what we want, probably not, but only because this is a rebuilding stage that will take time. Patience will be the key for all of us Yami sled fans but I believe they will get there.

 

[T-Bone]

You had me until you said "I will swear they purposely have made their sleds ride like crap compared to other brands to slow us down" They produce the fastest sled in the world with the Sidewinder ssooooo not sure about that comment. Anyway, IMO Yamaha have been brain storming over this for years and have a game plan put in place. Will it be what we want, probably not, but only because this is a rebuilding stage that will take time. Patience will be the key for all of us Yami sled fans but I believe they will get there.

Any plan that Yamaha has been brain storming over for years that results in not giving the customers what they want is for sure going to be a complete failure. It's good that you have faith. Time will tell. Have a good one!

 

[cannondale27]

You had me until you said "I will swear they purposely have made their sleds ride like crap compared to other brands to slow us down" They produce the fastest sled in the world with the Sidewinder ssooooo not sure about that comment. Anyway, IMO Yamaha have been brain storming over this for years and have a game plan put in place. Will it be what we want, probably not, but only because this is a rebuilding stage that will take time. Patience will be the key for all of us Yami sled fans but I believe they will get there.

Well if the Sidewinder had shock valving like the 14 and 15 Vipers the only place you would be "Using" that power is a lake! You want more examples?

 

[cannondale27]

You had me until you said "I will swear they purposely have made their sleds ride like crap compared to other brands to slow us down" They produce the fastest sled in the world with the Sidewinder ssooooo not sure about that comment. Anyway, IMO Yamaha have been brain storming over this for years and have a game plan put in place. Will it be what we want, probably not, but only because this is a rebuilding stage that will take time. Patience will be the key for all of us Yami sled fans but I believe they will get there.

And look at the Part#s on your shocks. Cat# is there too.

 

[sk-rx1]

You had me until you said "I will swear they purposely have made their sleds ride like crap compared to other brands to slow us down" They produce the fastest sled in the world with the Sidewinder ssooooo not sure about that comment. Anyway, IMO Yamaha have been brain storming over this for years and have a game plan put in place. Will it be what we want, probably not, but only because this is a rebuilding stage that will take time. Patience will be the key for all of us Yami sled fans but I believe they will get there.

The rebuilding stage was supposed to be while AC was making sleds for them......... I am also glad to see someone has hope.

 

[Vmax]

And look at the Part#s on your shocks. Cat# is there too.

Nope don't have to and sorry for giving my opinion. If you pay attention to my posts, I just got back into sledding after a 30 year absence and have a 1997 Vmax. Didn't want to invest a boat load of money into a sled (new models) to figure out I did not like it. Fact is I still like it at 58 years young and also love Yamaha sleds. I have confidence in them to resolve this issue, to bad others don't