2020 Release

[Vmax]

I want to add that I understand why Yamaha sled fans are upset. What they did years back was inexplicable, but I do hold faith that they know what went wrong and will correct it

 

[Sasquatch]

If Yamaha & artic cat come out with all new chassis in 2020 , what would sell more 2 stroke sleds ??? A sled with a Yamaha 2 stroke or a artic cat 2 stroke ?? Artic cat doesn't have the technology to reconfigure motors & up size to 850 cc motors quickly. Yamaha has the power to come up with motors they need .... I think a 600 & 850 are coming...

Again its a nice concept but Cat has made it clear that on the two stroke side they are competitors. Fourstroke side buddies. I would think that seeing as how Yamaha has not made a two stroke in well forever and seeing as they have not made a 600 or an 800 big bore, all they have for tech is three cylinder small bore!

What you are wishing for is a new partner ship like the fourstoke one that now includes two strokes. What you want is Cat to shut down production its own two stokes that sell (lay off their designers and production line) and let Yamaha build them instead? Somehow I don't think that is going to work out! You would be better off wishing for Yamaha to work with Cat in a new agreement to let them put their name on a line of two strokes! That would then be a total partnership between the three, at this time they have a fourstoke partnership only.

Two answer your question I think a two stoke Cat will and does sell just fine, I think Cat is further along on two stoke tech then Yamaha is. We like to think that Yamaha is the best and Cat is junk but Yamaha is now Cat. They are one and the same, dicing Cat is dicing Yamaha! The Yamaha identity is now a motor at best, a small thing to hang on to. Cat/Textron will decide what Yamaha can sell or what they will buy from them! I don't see Yamaha two strokes in that future. At best all I see is Yamaha tech's helping Cat with their two stokes in a new two stroke agreement, till that agreement they are competitors!

 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch, consumers don’t buy engines or chassis, they buy complete snowmobiles. Snowmobile manufacture have to develop both engines and chassis to keep up with consumer trends and new technologies if they want to stay in the business. Yamaha’s position after sales started to drop were that they were not going invest in sled development unless they could get a return on their investment. Well if your “latest sled offerings” are 10 year old technology do you think you are going to sell enough of the old tech to warrant investment in the new tech? That answer is obvious. So Yamaha ended up in this death spiral until forced into the relationship with AC.

Yamaha’s decision to go complete 4-stroke based on tightening emissions standards was a completely irresponsible business decision. Regulations change all the time. Yamaha is known for making PREMIER engines and they couldn’t continue developing both 4-stroke and 2-strokes like the other manufactures? The manufactures that did continue development and built what customers were demanding thrived even though world wide sled sales decreased. Yamaha thought they were smarter than their customers and tried forcing their ideas of what a sled should be down everyone’s throat.

I’ve owned three Apex based machines and they were great for groomed trail riding which is what I do, but you could not give them away to people riding the mountains, off-trail boondocking, or ditchbangers. What Yamaha did would be like Ski-Doo trying to survive off of only selling 900ACE and 600ACE variants.

WRT your statement that you used no exclamation points...better go check again but there is at least one used and it’s in the first sentence!! LOL.

But it was a well placed one!

 

[cannondale27]

Nope don't have to and sorry for giving my opinion. If you pay attention to my posts, I just got back into sledding after a 30 year absence and have a 1997 Vmax. Didn't want to invest a boat load of money into a sled (new models) to figure out I did not like it. Fact is I still like it at 58 years young and also love Yamaha sleds. I have confidence in them to resolve this issue, to bad others don't

If I didnt have Faith I wouldnt be here. I agree. Its actually exciting!

 

[cannondale27]

But it was a well placed one!

Till Cat sells Yamaha their 2 strokes for the new Yamaha Chassis. That would make them even more competitive. Who knows. Hopefully we get to see SOMETHING happen and soon.

 

[Sasquatch]

Sasquatch, consumers don’t buy engines or chassis, they buy complete snowmobiles. Snowmobile manufacture have to develop both engines and chassis to keep up with consumer trends and new technologies if they want to stay in the business. Yamaha’s position after sales started to drop were that they were not going invest in sled development unless they could get a return on their investment. Well if your “latest sled offerings” are 10 year old technology do you think you are going to sell enough of the old tech to warrant investment in the new tech? That answer is obvious. So Yamaha ended up in this death spiral until forced into the relationship with AC.

Yamaha’s decision to go complete 4-stroke based on tightening emissions standards was a completely irresponsible business decision. Regulations change all the time. Yamaha is known for making PREMIER engines and they couldn’t continue developing both 4-stroke and 2-strokes like the other manufactures? The manufactures that did continue development and built what customers were demanding thrived even though world wide sled sales decreased. Yamaha thought they were smarter than their customers and tried forcing their ideas of what a sled should be down everyone’s throat.

I’ve owned three Apex based machines and they were great for groomed trail riding which is what I do, but you could not give them away to people riding the mountains, off-trail boondocking, or ditchbangers. What Yamaha did would be like Ski-Doo trying to survive off of only selling 900ACE and 600ACE variants.

WRT your statement that you used no exclamation points...better go check again but there is at least one used and it’s in the first sentence!! LOL.

I'll also add that all it would have taken to turn Yamaha around would have been a good chassis, good suspension, the proof is the current Cat chassis/suspension. If Yamaha had built that and stuffed the Apex engine in it sales would have continued to increase. You can't blame it all on the two stroke! It was Yamaha's inability to build a chassis that hurt them! Two stroke or four is irrelevant they needed a better chassis either way! As we see and are seeing they can not build a chassis or suspension.

 

[STAIN]

It seems that everyone has decided that Yamaha's decision to go with 4 stroke engines over 2 strokes was wrong, and that Yamaha's current position at the bottom of the pile is due to that mistake. Honestly, I think that the decision to go with 4-strokes was 100% correct. Where Yamaha fell down was that they did not develop a competitive chassis for their engines. If Yamaha had stayed with 2-strokes and built delta-box sleds like the Vector and Apex, they would already be out of the snowmobile business. What made me switch to Yamaha from Polaris was that sweet little 1049 cc 4-stroke engine in the Vector. If the Vector had been a 2-stroke, I would still be riding Polaris sleds.

So while I agree that Yamaha has made mistakes in its' snowmobile production, I believe its' biggest mistake was not staying ahead of the competition with chassis design. I don't have numbers to prove it, but my "seat of the pants" feeling is that Yamaha's alliance with AC ended up with a big boost in Yamaha sales. I know that in the few short years the Viper has been out, I have seen many more Vipers on the trails than I ever saw Vectors or Apexes. Once Yamaha had a decent chassis for its 4-stroke engine, they became "relevant" to the snowmobile world again.

So a Yamaha 2-stroke would be nice, and it would probably sell, but what will ultimately seal the fate of Yamaha snowmobiling will be the chassis that their engines sit in.

I was thinking the EXCACT same thing

 

[cannondale27]

I'll also add that all it would have taken to turn Yamaha around would have been a good chassis, good suspension, the proof is the current Cat chassis/suspension. If Yamaha had built that and stuffed the Apex engine in it sales would have continued to increase. You can't blame it all on the two stroke! It was Yamaha's inability to build a chassis that hurt them! Two stroke or four is irrelevant they needed a better chassis either way! As we see and are seeing they can not build a chassis or suspension.

They CHOOSE not to build a chassis and suspension. There is no doubt they could if they wanted too.

 

[cannondale27]

Holy cow! Seems all of us in this huge thread agree if Yamaha does get back in the game they need to make a chassis/suspension at least as good as the Cat chassis.

 

[STAIN]

Holy cow! Seems all of us in this huge thread agree if Yamaha does get back in the game they need to make a chassis/suspension at least as good as the Cat chassis.

I would say so. My Viper and Sidewinder are the BEST Yamaha sleds I have ever ridden. As a matter of fact my Sidewinder is the BEST sled I have ever owned ( well over 30 sleds to date) and best set up right out of the box.

 

[ccmviper]

Till Cat sells Yamaha their 2 strokes for the new Yamaha Chassis. That would make them even more competitive. Who knows. Hopefully we get to see SOMETHING happen and soon.

You seem sure theres a new chassis.I hope youre right.

 

[T-Bone]

I'll also add that all it would have taken to turn Yamaha around would have been a good chassis, good suspension, the proof is the current Cat chassis/suspension. If Yamaha had built that and stuffed the Apex engine in it sales would have continued to increase. You can't blame it all on the two stroke! It was Yamaha's inability to build a chassis that hurt them! Two stroke or four is irrelevant they needed a better chassis either way! As we see and are seeing they can not build a chassis or suspension.

Even if they built the best chassis ever, with only heavier 4-stroke engines to put in that great chassis Yamaha would still only have great trail sleds while completely ignoring customers in other segments of the markets. Ditchbangers don't want that, neither do the mountain, boondockers and crossover segments. There really is no argument. All you have to do is look at sled sales. The strong majority want 2-strokes. Not me, not you, not most people on this site, but you can't ignore the facts.

 

[Sasquatch]

Even if they built the best chassis ever, with only heavier 4-stroke engines to put in that great chassis Yamaha would still only have great trail sleds while completely ignoring customers in other segments of the markets. Ditchbangers don't want that, neither do the mountain, boondockers and crossover segments. There really is no argument. All you have to do is look at sled sales. The strong majority want 2-strokes. Not me, not you, not most people on this site, but you can't ignore the facts.

Not ignoring the facts, I just take issue with its all about the two strokes, the story is so much deeper then that. They still needed a chassis, they always did and still do? Something they just can't seem to get right. Now with the Cat chassis the Yamaha guys are all praise to the chassis and how good it it is in the bumps, the corners and how great it is on and off trail. Finally Cat has two 2 strokes and I don't see them making great strides into Doo territory. But smile cause unless Yamaha leaves the partnership Cat two strokes are the best your going to get!

They CHOOSE not to build a chassis and suspension. There is no doubt they could if they wanted too.

Really? They choose not to? They built a Nytro and it turned out to be a dud, they built a Phazer but it was not again what people wanted! They stuck with the delta box from 2003 till 2018, built three no four different skids refined the front suspension three or four times and none of either even came close to the competition and while they made some great refinements to it people where leaving for the 1200 Doo! Why? For the chassis and suspension.

So for a company that choose not to they sure tried and failed a lot! Which is why we are where we are today.

 

[Sasquatch]

I'll add one more thing to this! My 2000 Cat 1,000cc was a better handling and riding sled then My Warriror was. I put in a AD Boivin skid, stiffer sway bars, lowered it a lot, excell exhaust, Apex seat and different ski's. Finally it rode as good and cornered as well! The Cat weighed 10pds more then the warrior before I took at least 30 to 40pds off the Warrior with the plastic skid and excell exhaust! We can argue all day long about what Yamaha should have done and why! We can disagree about is till the cows come home, bottom line is Yamaha is in bed with Cat, they look to be in that bed pretty tight. To make the best of it no matter what chassis is coming Yamaha needs to put stickers on Cats two strokes or strike out on their own if they can. So how many say ya Sticker up them Cat 2's? How many say no damn way Cat is junk?

 

[cannondale27]

No. Either the engine or chassis has to be made by Yamaha or I would go buy a Cat at Cat dealer.