camshafts

[alaskanbowtie]

Fundy power sports ......... here you go !

Hi Michael, we have some pretty good packages for both. On the Vector, just our porting, a little more compression and cam timing makes 136HP from 118 and 88ft/lbs of torque from 80.
We also have a new set of cams that we designed but haven't had a chance to test them yet. Should put the above package to around 150HP.
We are still testing on the Apex, right now our cams, and porting makes 170-175HP, this same package on an RX-1 with 39mm carbs makes 190HP so we still have a little testing to do to perfect the Apex once we have our new manifolds done.
We do have an 1108 B/B for the RX/Apex that makes 200HP with carbs. It's $1800 with the sleeves installed in your block. Then you need our cams $1250, porting $1050 and our new manifold Approx $450. So the total, if you assemble it is $4550.
Yes, an N/A 4 stroke that beats most other N/A pumpgas sleds get's alot of attention.
Thanks,
Ray
>>>>>>
This was the email I recieved from them and copied here, 150 h.p with the cam changes would be awesome for the vector...... wonder how much torque the 150fi. puts out in comparison ? If you add the Excell header and exhaust it might make another 5 h.p. ? Something to consider , I thought about doing a lightened Mnt. Vector crossover sled and now it sounds even more fun with 150 h.p. ......sleeper for sure .

 

[alaskanbowtie]

lb, why did you buy a 121 shorty and then stretch it out to a 144? if you wanted a long track you should have bought the 151.... this is something i dont get...

Uh, maybe because 151 is too long?

>>>>
Why you always have to be a smart #*$&@ ?
>>>>>>
Here is another email reguarding the cams , packages etc. from Fundy Power sports. , as follows
>>>>
Hi Michael, our 1108 B/B does use the EFI on the Apex (we are working on a new manifold to get the HP equal to the carb version.) which I included in the price but you would be looking at closer to $6000 full built, Dynoed and with clutching and fuel controller.
Yes we can increase the compression for a little more, especially if you only ride at altitude.
Once our new manifold is complete, our 175HP Apex package should be in the 180+ range.
Total cost for this package is:
Cams $1250
Porting $1050
Gskts $50
Labour $550
Dyno $200
Total: $3100
Clutching for this package is $317.90

Our Vector package is:
Cams $1250
Porting & machining $950
Gskts $50
Labour $500
Dyno $200
Total: $2950
..................................
These are in CA funds, the vector lightened with this mod would be a nice an #*$&@ kicker !!

 

[Dynoray]

Re: Fundy power sports ......... here you go !

Hi Michael, we have some pretty good packages for both. On the Vector, just our porting, a little more compression and cam timing makes 136HP from 118 and 88ft/lbs of torque from 80.
We also have a new set of cams that we designed but haven't had a chance to test them yet. Should put the above package to around 150HP.
We are still testing on the Apex, right now our cams, and porting makes 170-175HP, this same package on an RX-1 with 39mm carbs makes 190HP so we still have a little testing to do to perfect the Apex once we have our new manifolds done.
We do have an 1108 B/B for the RX/Apex that makes 200HP with carbs. It's $1800 with the sleeves installed in your block. Then you need our cams $1250, porting $1050 and our new manifold Approx $450. So the total, if you assemble it is $4550.
Yes, an N/A 4 stroke that beats most other N/A pumpgas sleds get's alot of attention.
Thanks,
Ray
>>>>>>
This was the email I recieved from them and copied here, 150 h.p with the cam changes would be awesome for the vector...... wonder how much torque the 150fi. puts out in comparison ? If you add the Excell header and exhaust it might make another 5 h.p. ? Something to consider , I thought about doing a lightened Mnt. Vector crossover sled and now it sounds even more fun with 150 h.p. ......sleeper for sure .

Hi Alaska, the 150fi makes 85ft/lbs of torque stk.
Thanks,
Ray

 

[alaskanbowtie]

Re: Fundy power sports ......... here you go !

Hi Michael, we have some pretty good packages for both. On the Vector, just our porting, a little more compression and cam timing makes 136HP from 118 and 88ft/lbs of torque from 80.
We also have a new set of cams that we designed but haven't had a chance to test them yet. Should put the above package to around 150HP.
We are still testing on the Apex, right now our cams, and porting makes 170-175HP, this same package on an RX-1 with 39mm carbs makes 190HP so we still have a little testing to do to perfect the Apex once we have our new manifolds done.
We do have an 1108 B/B for the RX/Apex that makes 200HP with carbs. It's $1800 with the sleeves installed in your block. Then you need our cams $1250, porting $1050 and our new manifold Approx $450. So the total, if you assemble it is $4550.
Yes, an N/A 4 stroke that beats most other N/A pumpgas sleds get's alot of attention.
Thanks,
Ray
>>>>>>
This was the email I recieved from them and copied here, 150 h.p with the cam changes would be awesome for the vector...... wonder how much torque the 150fi. puts out in comparison ? If you add the Excell header and exhaust it might make another 5 h.p. ? Something to consider , I thought about doing a lightened Mnt. Vector crossover sled and now it sounds even more fun with 150 h.p. ......sleeper for sure .

Hi Alaska, the 150fi makes 85ft/lbs of torque stk.
Thanks,
Ray

>>>>
Dynoray hows the testing going with the sleds ? Also have you dyno'd the new cams in the three cylinder for a H.p. & Trq. number yet ? I'm still quite interested in this. How about the new manifold etc. for the Apex , did you get to the 190 h.p. you were expecting ? Lastly how many Vector have you done this way and how has the dependability been thus far ? THX again Mike

 

[Tork]

Does anybody know of any aftermarket cams made for the Vector engine? I talked to Hotcams and they will not be making them for about 3 years.

I think that cams are not the way to go. Boost or NOS is.


The Vector motor is almost exactly 3/4 of the FJR 1300 motorcycle engine that came out in 2003, which even with EFI dynos out at 145 HP at 8500 and then quickly drops off. It is a 4 valve per cylinder head which looks to be able to move only so much air and that is it.
No doubt you could get 10HP with porting and cams, but you would be at $3000 or higher to do it which get you in turbo/supercharger kind of $$ which gives you more HP per dollar.

I read the http://www.fjr1300.info/ forums quite a bit and if cams did very much, the motorcycle guys would be on to it first.

 

[alaskanbowtie]

I think that it entirely depends on the owners expectations

In my case I live in rural Alaska and have no dealer around, no NOS availability and no experience with turbo'd sleds. Though I do know a few guys with Turbo'd sleds who are wrenching on them on a fairly consistent basis and they are top notch mechanics for dealers in another area.
Now Nos with a refill station is aropund 1300.00 for the set up, ( I know I've looked) Super charger and turbo cost is ATLEAST $6200.00 with guages and clutching, the complete set up, I've also looked into this in several places. so if you compare a consistent , dependable 145 to 150 h.p. with a built 3 cylinder for 3000.00 US , with no refills on a regualr basis or other work or costs, it doesn't look so bad if your not wanting more H.p. then this package will give you.
Three grand is NOT in the Turbo ball park for a complete set up, I've asked several places and you CAN NOT come close to the set up for that little money !

 

[Tork]

Missing my point. I just am not sure that you can put in some cams and port and get 145-150 HP out of that motor. I'd like to see the dyno charts so that I wasnt skeptical. It is possible tho if you rev it to 10,500 RPM sure, but I wonder if the bottom end is made to do that consistanly, it isnt on the motorcycle engine it is based on.


Car motors rarely put out more than 100 HP per 1000 cc of displacement

Honda s2000. 2.2 liter, 237 HP = 107 HP per 1000 CC at 8000 RPM.

RPM is biggest factor in HP per 1000cc (first 3 are roughly 1000 cc motors)

Vector 120HP @ 8600 RPM

Apex 149 HP @ 10,500 RPM

R 1 bike motor 173 HP @ 12,500 RPM

Formula One race engine 290 HP per 1000cc at an amazing 19,000 RPM

It is not like the old days where you could bolt on or bolt in a 20% HP increase. All the above are very efficient breathers right out of the box.

 

[alaskanbowtie]

Missing my point. I just am not sure that you can put in some cams and port and get 145-150 HP out of that motor. I'd like to see the dyno charts so that I wasnt skeptical. It is possible tho if you rev it to 10,500 RPM sure, but I wonder if the bottom end is made to do that consistanly, it isnt on the motorcycle engine it is based on.


Car motors rarely put out more than 100 HP per 1000 cc of displacement

Honda s2000. 2.2 liter, 237 HP = 107 HP per 1000 CC at 8000 RPM.

RPM is biggest factor in HP per 1000cc (first 3 are roughly 1000 cc motors)

Vector 120HP @ 8600 RPM

Apex 149 HP @ 10,500 RPM

R 1 bike motor 173 HP @ 12,500 RPM

Formula One race engine 290 HP per 1000cc at an amazing 19,000 RPM

It is not like the old days where you could bolt on or bolt in a 20% HP increase. All the above are very efficient breathers right out of the box.

>>>
I agree with a lot of what your saying ! I too would like to see the some dyno charts to support Dynoray's findings. Of course before a purchase or modification like this I would have to see a chart to verify these findings ! But I know he has a reputation and Fundy power sports has a reputation of being honest and non exajerated on there numbers. I however do believe this engine is capable of 145 with all the changes they make in there package. I think this has been also said to happen in Europe where they race the Vector sleds. So the 145 number isn't hard to believe but ultimately it depends on the owners wants and needs!
I think Yamaha should redesign the head and intake/cams to put this engine in the Phaser chasis, have it making 150 h.p. with a good amount of torque like it currently has, say 85 to 100 ft.lbs , this would be a great combo. I think they would have to lighten the crank some for it to spin much higher RPM, and stay together. Keeping the longer stroke with a lighter crank is the only way to reach a higher rpm say around 10500 and be dependable. This would kep the longer stroke and torque it brings with it also making more H.p. But what I think really doesn't mean anything.........LOL.

 

[Tork]

Found a formula that is the brick wall that nobody can break.

15.65 HP per liter per 1000 RPM for the absolute best for naturally asperated engines.

Vector 15.65 X 970cc X 8500 RPM = 129 maximum horse power.

Cross check the others
apex 15.65 x ,998 X 10300 = 160

Million dollar F ! engine
15.65 x 19000 = 297HP

The only one that is low is the R1
15.65 x ,998 x 12500 = 195

So of all the above the R1 bike could really be helped by cams, it is probably detuned on purpose so it has some low end torque.

LOL now I see why you are big on the cam issue, you build high performance Chevy engines http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=16683

 

[alaskanbowtie]

SBC....LOL yeah i've built a few

According to that equation the apex could see only 160 h.p. which I know that Fundy Power Sports has out performed with there Apex package. Ulmer racing sells it as well, the old kit made 175 & 110 ft. lbs torque, the new manifold and efi tuned he said they'd be at the 190 h.p. range like there kit get's with the RX-1 engine so apparently numbers don't mean everything. The RX-1 package with cam's carb increase timing etc. get's 190 dyno proven H.P. !
We could debate this all day long I guess the way to solve it is to ask Dynoray about the Dyno graphs to prove it. I'm sure you've seen my copied and posted emails from Fundy about these different packages. The Vector package isn't just cam's it's a bit of compression, timing porting etc. all combined for the 145 number. I learned a LONG time ago formula's aren't the "end of all", in the real world with results. Not to say they aren't accurate or useful. I've seen SBC that formula out at 400 h.p. and have dyno'd out above 500, sled engines are of course entirely different but for you to basically say it's not possible is a bit narrow minded to say the least, especially if you have experience building engines which you sound like you do. I'll PM Dynoray about the dyno numbers but will be out of town working for a week so I'll try to get back on here and respond when he does. I do want to see for myself, reguardless of the outcome.

 

[alaskanbowtie]

Found a formula that is the brick wall that nobody can break.

15.65 HP per liter per 1000 RPM for the absolute best for naturally asperated engines.

Vector 15.65 X 970cc X 8500 RPM = 129 maximum horse power.

Cross check the others
apex 15.65 x ,998 X 10300 = 160

Million dollar F ! engine
15.65 x 19000 = 297HP

The only one that is low is the R1
15.65 x ,998 x 12500 = 195

So of all the above the R1 bike could really be helped by cams, it is probably detuned on purpose so it has some low end torque.

LOL now I see why you are big on the cam issue, you build high performance Chevy engines http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=16683

>>>>
here's one for you, with this formula a 358 SBC is capable of a maximum 448 h.p. MAX normally asperated and I know FOR SURE that's bulshizz I have one right now that dyno'd at 562 @ 7658 rpm's without juice and it's set up for a 200 h.p. squeeze so tell why this doesn't compute ? I have built 383's that dyno'd at 635 h.p. N.A. with a solid cam, granted these are some real monsters that have 13.1 comp and spin near 8000 which is A LOT for a stroker on a consistent basis , I don't care what anyone says. This is also way off according to the absolute best formula. i've read a lot of your posts and you are pretty sharp from what I've read but I think your off on this formula theory. I've built and seen way to many engines built that stomp this formula in the ground , I don't know why? I'm an old school guy not a math wizz, but have learned from some of the best and have built some monsters. So I am quite confident the vector can be a 145 h.p. engine with some simple mods and relatively cheap, Freddy also built an RX-1 or Apex engine that made more than 200 dyno'd H.P. NA , there's just to many people out there who've seen it and done it on these engines for it to not be possible.

 

[yamahajunkie]

depends on $$ and time. anything is posible if you have enough of each

 

[Srxspec]

Independent dyno results hopefully coming soon on the Apex kit!! We're busier than a one-legged man in an @ss kicking contest right now though! Nos, turbo/supercharger, porting/cams all have their place!!

 

[black john]

cam,s

trust me you realy have to try some of dyno rays. power mods they work very well i can not say enuf good thing,s and i am only running some of there stuff pulls like a tractor down low and mid range is well wow and even with the rather large lobes on the cams you can not tell that there,s any mods even at an idel smoooth as silk. kind of a sleeper. and i am not done with the tuneing yet as i only got a couple of rideing days in last spring after install. (and not any not any jets in the right range at that time )

 

[LazyBastard]

I have built 383's that dyno'd at 635 h.p. N.A. with a solid cam, granted these are some real monsters that have 13.1 comp and spin near 8000 which is A LOT for a stroker on a consistent basis , I don't care what anyone says. This is also way off according to the absolute best formula.

383 x 16.4 = 6.281 L
15.65 x 6.281 x 8 (krpm) = 786.4 hp. Seems that YOUR engine is the one thats coming up short.


And your previous post, about Ulmer racing RX1/Apex at 175 or 190 hp... spin it 12.5 krpm and the theoretical limit jumps up to 195. Guess you didn't read the part where they say that the engine will spin faster than stock, eh?


Don't take this to say that the formulas are absolutely right, just that you have NOT disproven them.