camshafts

[Srxspec]

LB, the RX-1 trail motor runs at 10,700 rpm and the Apex trail motor runs at stock rpm levels. The stock CDI will not allow you to run any where near 12,500 rpm.

 

[Tork]

I have built 383's that dyno'd at 635 h.p. N.A. with a solid cam, granted these are some real monsters that have 13.1 comp and spin near 8000 which is A LOT for a stroker on a consistent basis , I don't care what anyone says. This is also way off according to the absolute best formula.

383 x 16.4 = 6.281 L
15.65 x 6.281 x 8 (krpm) = 786.4 hp. Seems that YOUR engine is the one thats coming up short.


And your previous post, about Ulmer racing RX1/Apex at 175 or 190 hp... spin it 12.5 krpm and the theoretical limit jumps up to 195. Guess you didn't read the part where they say that the engine will spin faster than stock, eh?


Don't take this to say that the formulas are absolutely right, just that you have NOT disproven them.

Thanks LB, I'd like to think that anything is possible like everybody else

There just seems to be a law of physics that Porsche, Lamborguini etc and all the tuners in the world just cant seem to beat. Understanding that just makes you appreciate that much more the wonderful job Yamaha has done with the 3 and 4 cylinder engines.

Allen is the man! He will give us a 175 naturally asperated HP apex but he will more than likely have to do it close to the rev limiter (11,200-11,400 ?)

 

[alaskanbowtie]

LB, the RX-1 trail motor runs at 10,700 rpm and the Apex trail motor runs at stock rpm levels. The stock CDI will not allow you to run any where near 12,500 rpm.

>>>>>
LB ........ I figured the formula wrong, thought it was 3833 cc.....LOL? Was in a hurry, but I did give an example of it being wrong and I'm sure there are many, many more, I have seen 383's in the high 700's but I didn't build them, to much money...... where did the 12,500 rpm's come from ? Just pull that out your azz ..... so how are they reaching the H.P. turning stock RPMS......... figure that one out smart guy, according to the formula it's NOT possible!
I think they are running the Fundy Power sports package , although I'm not for sure, perhaps Allen will chime in on the details. What I'm saying is there's a place for formula's but don't just narrow mindedly say "NOT POSSIBLE" , you should know better. I could care less about "tooners" .....(LOL) around the world, I have my own experience's that's what I go by. Not what they say, and I haven't heard back from Dynoray yet, but will post what he has to say when he returns the pm.
How did Freddie build a 200 h.p. Apex spinning 11000 rpms? There's another one to think about. OH and I quit listening to LB when he suggested to use a file to turn down our primary clutch for a better shift.....LMAO, NO thank you, talk about old school, I thought I was bad.

 

[Tork]

How does the file to machine the clutch even fit into this? And not a bad idea IF you are skilled with machine tools.

Per Dynoray who says 1108 big bore makes 200 HP.

Cross check with formula
11.08 x 15.65 x 11,000 RPM = 191 HP

so where is the 9 HP??

Most of it could be here
http://www.madmanengineering.com/dyno2.htm

During a test conducted by Performance Bike magazine, a comparison of different dynos using a ZX-11 motorcycle produced a 6 HP variation, a significant amount.

Think of an engine as an air pump, and cams porting etc are removing restrictions in the plumbing. In the end, the 'air pump' of a given size at a given speed can only move so much air and that is it.

make fun of tooners all you want but guys like Allen and Fundy are tuners nontheless. Plus to think Yamaha gave us 5 valves per cylinder and yet left a lot of restrictions in the plumbing for the tuners to remove is not that logical..... for me anyway....

Actually I would not mind proving "the formula" wrong myself but no matter what I check it against, it really seems to hold up. If you can explode it as myth, by all means do so.

 

[alaskanbowtie]

How does the file to machine the clutch even fit into this? And not a bad idea IF you are skilled with machine tools.

Per Dynoray who says 1108 big bore makes 200 HP.

Cross check with formula
11.08 x 15.65 x 11,000 RPM = 191 HP

so where is the 9 HP??

Most of it could be here
http://www.madmanengineering.com/dyno2.htm

During a test conducted by Performance Bike magazine, a comparison of different dynos using a ZX-11 motorcycle produced a 6 HP variation, a significant amount.

Think of an engine as an air pump, and cams porting etc are removing restrictions in the plumbing. In the end, the 'air pump' of a given size at a given speed can only move so much air and that is it.

make fun of tooners all you want but guys like Allen and Fundy are tuners nontheless. Plus to think Yamaha gave us 5 valves per cylinder and yet left a lot of restrictions in the plumbing for the tuners to remove is not that logical..... for me anyway....

Actually I would not mind proving "the formula" wrong myself but no matter what I check it against, it really seems to hold up. If you can explode it as myth, by all means do so.

>>>>
File to clutch was an example of why I don't take everything that LB says to heart, in the past he has said some dumb things so I am not about to take what he says as the Bible, .........did I really need to explain that ?
>>>>>
I agree, an engine is an air pump, and like I said earlier I agree with a lot of what you have to say just that I'm not near as narrow minded...... perhaps I should be? The article you post is a good read, but now I'm wondering how is it that they ( Fundy Power Sports) can possibly achieve 190 h.p. on a dyno from an RX-1 with out increasing CC's , with there package ? According to you NOT possible yet there doing it, Even if you take 10 H.P. off for variance or what ever reason that's still way more than "formula" possible @ 11000 rpm's ? So essentially your saying there claims are lie's, and proving it with the formula. That's a pretty big statement ! According to you 160 h.p. is MAX for the Apex without increasing displacement ? I don't know the answer but if Dynoray has a Dyno sheet saying it makes that much H.p. ,that's what I'll go by, not a formula, the dyno can't be that off ! I was just keeping the conversation light with my tooner remark, wasn't meant to offend ! This brings up another thought, if the dyno has variances, then perhaps the Apex doesn't truely make 149 h.p. or perhaps the Excell exhaust doesn't actually increase H.P. because it's such a small amount ?

 

[LazyBastard]

I'm not near as narrow minded...... perhaps I should be?

Any more narrow minded and you'd be flat.

 

[alaskanbowtie]

I'm not near as narrow minded...... perhaps I should be?

Any more narrow minded and you'd be flat.

>>>>>
LMAO.........coming from the person who's never wrong and usually knows everything about any givin topic. Go back to your file and couch.........LOL. Just kidding. Good one ! I called Fundy power sports today and Ray will be emailing me dyno sheets to show you two that in fact there kit does make 190 h.p. with a stock stroke and bored RX-1 , yet the formula says not possible........ and not at 12,500 rpms ...... go figure ? How does this formula apply to a two stroke engine ? They make a lot more H.P. per cc than any 4 stroke ?

 

[novarossi]

Formula's are like blueprints. They always seem to work on paper. With headwork, cams, a bit more compression and some tuning I'm betting the Vector engine can do 135 hp. We'll see.

 

[LazyBastard]

I'm not near as narrow minded...... perhaps I should be?

Any more narrow minded and you'd be flat.

>>>>>
LMAO.........coming from the person who's never wrong and usually knows everything about any givin topic. Go back to your file and couch.........LOL. Just kidding. Good one ! I called Fundy power sports today and Ray will be emailing me dyno sheets to show you two that in fact there kit does make 190 h.p. with a stock stroke and bored RX-1 , yet the formula says not possible........ and not at 12,500 rpms ...... go figure ? How does this formula apply to a two stroke engine ? They make a lot more H.P. per cc than any 4 stroke ?

I actually have a hard time putting any faith into a formula like that one. I was actually just playing the devil's advocate for a bit. Having a formula is nice, but some kind of backing in real physics is necessary for evaluating it. There ARE formulas that I will swear by, but not this one. Not without more info on it.

 

[Tork]

Back to real world bang for the buck. I got to ride with a guy that has a supercharger like Allen sells, amazing! My thumb got quickly addicted to the power.
But riding with NOS-Pro this year, holy cow he gets a lot of reliable power from a not all that big investment.
Would be neat to see Terry race somebody who has done the cams and porting. But I dont think the naturally asperated breathing mods are widely in use.

Put the Fundy mods against NOS-Pro on Pinks

 

[Turk]

I saw Terry,s sled run on the button at the TY manitoba ride. My Rx-1 turbo at 8 pounds boost would have a hard time keeping up. I would need 10 pounds boost to maybe beat him but even at that it would be close!

 

[alaskanbowtie]

Back to real world bang for the buck. I got to ride with a guy that has a supercharger like Allen sells, amazing! My thumb got quickly addicted to the power.
But riding with NOS-Pro this year, holy cow he gets a lot of reliable power from a not all that big investment.
Would be neat to see Terry race somebody who has done the cams and porting. But I dont think the naturally asperated breathing mods are widely in use.

Put the Fundy mods against NOS-Pro on Pinks

>>>
|BINGO, there's away for some braggin rights......have Fundy run there 1184 BB , NA engine against NOS-PRO on pinks.........that's an awesome idea! They're suppose to be running it on asphalt here in a few weeks, perhaps I'll email him then and ask what kind of times he's pullin with it. When I talked to Ray at Fundy he was saying at least 220h.p. and more like 230h.p. for the BB 1184 application and a lot of torque. That would be a good comparison for sure and Fundy has the coins to take the chance! I completely agree with a lot of what you've said in this conversation and will need to see some dyno sheets before ever buying a package deal like this but I also think they are honest dependable tuners with great packages depending on what the buyers needs/wants are, that being said I'll wait until end of Sept. for the new dyno sheets from Fundy and when he sends them to me I'll post them for eveyone to see.

 

[Tork]

Good master plan alaskanbowtie.
The whole thing is that is how I challenge myself before I fork out a few grand LOL

I keep watching the motorcycle side of things (that is more or less what our four strokers are) to see the numbers they are getting with mods.

Motorcycles are way ahead of us because the market is so many times bigger, and they have been 4 strokes for so much longer.

Graves makes cams for the R-1 but searching all over I cant find any horseposer claims.

One interesting note Ram Air gives the R1 8 HP, and that I would think would not show up on a dyno.

Other note is that the 15.64 per liter per 1000 is for pump gas
with racing fuel it goes into the 17s

 

[black john]

cam,s

graves only offers the intake cam no exh cam. and a moter bike does not run at a steady state rpm like we do. cruseing i run at 8000-9000 rpm. and with a ech system like owers is so stright very few bends gives us a much higher flow rate. ie a 90.deg bend is worth five feet of pipe in restrition. a bike has a minamum of two 90deg bends per cyl . this is why its realy hard for the affter market guys to get a much better pipe than stk like they can on a bike. just waiting for that new intake of fudy power sports that should make some differnce on top end power.