Clutching on the cheap

[Studroes144]

There's the Toronto show this weekend up there correct? I bet you can get a real good deal on something there! $500 seems steep but shipping to Ontario isn't cheap either

 

[stingray719]

Hey Guy's
I don't meen to jump In! What are your opinions on the Hartman clutch kits? I got a quote of $500 shipped to my door to Ontario. Compete kits for both Primary and secondary set to my weight, riding style, sled, elevation etc. Spoke to Tom at Hartman and it sounded good o me?

If you are buying a kit and there is nothing wrong with that Tom Hartman would be a good as a choice as any. BUT, this is clutching on the cheap thread and with that in mind you could do stage 3 without a fuel controller (not sure if it is needed where you ride) an even with a fuel controller full stage 3 is not much above the quoted price you gave for a kit. Or just do the can on stage 3 without air box mod should be ok without fuel controller (check plugs for lean of course) Stage 3 is what NOS-PRO has and does 109mph 1/4 mile runs at 11.2 seconds. No clutch kit alone will give that.

So if buying a kit is what you are after yes Hartman is as good as anybody in my opinion, but if you are looking for biggest bang for your buck a vendor clutch kit is not it.


Reprinted here for clarification.....

Nothing wrong with buying a kit we are just do it yourselfers.
Stage 1 - by taking off the primary clutch cover (6 bolts) and put in a 4mm or 6mm shim (available at http://www.benderracing.com/Clutch_Shims_s/38412.htm or you can make one out of the last coil on an old spring). That gives you the big change. Approx. cost $0 to$10.00
Stage 2 - put shim from stage 1, green/white/green spring, and 8FS weights in. Approx. cost $195.00
Stage 3 - like NOS-PRO and mine are, stage 2 with MBRP can (others may work as well) and Airbox mod. If interested the airbox mod is explained here http://www.ty4stroke.com/threads/air-box-mod.129365/ in detail. Stage 3 in my opinion is the way to go. (Fuel controller most likely will be needed depending on altitude, add another 375-400) approx. cost $460.00 - approx. cost with fuel controller $850.00

 

[kviper]

Here are a couple fact's in regards to clutch kit's. The biggest cost in a clutch kit is the primary weight's with the driven clutch cam the second largest. Aftermarket weight's usually have a much more agressive profile which allows for a lighter total weight and yet still is capable of more centrifugal force than stock (harder acceleration). The lighter weight will result in a better back shift and the sled will be more throttle responsive. This usually requires a cam angle change to compleat the package. The bottom line is you get what you pay for so it depends what level you want to play at. Aftermarket primary weight's like STM's (most popular and easiest to tune) I think are $275 ish and cam's are $100 ish. Add spring's and a profit margin for the person that spen't the time to dial everything in. Not trying to say Any ones kit's don't work, just saying you get what you pay for!

 

[stingray719]

Here are a couple fact's in regards to clutch kit's. The biggest cost in a clutch kit is the primary weight's with the driven clutch cam the second largest. Aftermarket weight's usually have a much more agressive profile which allows for a lighter total weight and yet still is capable of more centrifugal force than stock (harder acceleration). The lighter weight will result in a better back shift and the sled will be more throttle responsive. This usually requires a cam angle change to compleat the package. The bottom line is you get what you pay for so it depends what level you want to play at. Aftermarket primary weight's like STM's (most popular and easiest to tune) I think are $275 ish and cam's are $100 ish. Add spring's and a profit margin for the person that spen't the time to dial everything in. Not trying to say Any ones kit's don't work, just saying you get what you pay for!

When you get a Viper you will find the clutches on these do not tune like the Apex or Phazer they are a bit different, even the roller size is different. That being said the concept of this thread is to pass on for free the work we did to benefit our Viper brothers. Those that do not do their own work will buy a kit and that is fine, but there are those of us who always do our own and that is what this thread is about.

 

[RTX]

Here are a couple fact's in regards to clutch kit's. The biggest cost in a clutch kit is the primary weight's with the driven clutch cam the second largest. Aftermarket weight's usually have a much more agressive profile which allows for a lighter total weight and yet still is capable of more centrifugal force than stock (harder acceleration). The lighter weight will result in a better back shift and the sled will be more throttle responsive. This usually requires a cam angle change to compleat the package. The bottom line is you get what you pay for so it depends what level you want to play at. Aftermarket primary weight's like STM's (most popular and easiest to tune) I think are $275 ish and cam's are $100 ish. Add spring's and a profit margin for the person that spen't the time to dial everything in. Not trying to say Any ones kit's don't work, just saying you get what you pay for!

While i agree you get what you pay for.
i also believe theres a boatload of knowledgable guys on this site willing to help others get their sleds performing at their best and ultimately thats what this site is all about
I just spent 11 grand on a sled that needed a storage bag, handwarmers, studs, carbides, a skidplate, and now clutching.
honestly, i just dont have a spare $500 burning a hole in my pocket.
For me, its easier to do things in stages or as money becomes available..
Ive got a wife to report to, lol.
Its way easier to slip $100 bucks past her each month than a one time $500 purchase.
Plus, doing things in stages allows guys that dont know clutching (ME) to see what each change makes.

 

[kviper]

The Viper clutches are basically identical to an Apex with a shorter C to C and yes they obviously are tuned different but respond to tuning exactly the same way. I guess Barney should ask his question in a new thread?

 

[Barney Maclean]

The Viper clutches are basically identical to an Apex with a shorter C to C and yes they obviously are tuned different but respond to tuning exactly the same way. I guess Barney should ask his question in a new thread?

Thanks for the input Fellas! Greatly appreciated! This my first Yamaha and first 4 stroke! I just wanna be Happy coming from 800etec! I have NP doing my own work just trying to fees my head with most information as possible with Great results! Just ordered the MBRP trail can from TY supporter as well!

 

[Studroes144]

Thanks for the input Fellas! Greatly appreciated! This my first Yamaha and first 4 stroke! I just wanna be Happy coming from 800etec! I have NP doing my own work just trying to fees my head with most information as possible with Great results! Just ordered the MBRP trail can from TY supporter as well!

If you plan to do additional mods other than the can it will be well worth your $ to buy a kit with some form of adjustable weights to account for the added hp.

 

[kviper]

RTX, I have no problem with any one doing what ever they wan't and am not questioning any ones gain's. I am just pointing out what the differences in cost gets you.

 

[RTX]

RTX, I have no problem with any one doing what ever they wan't and am not questioning any ones gain's. I am just pointing out what the differences in cost gets you.

Sounds like you think im picking at you. im not. this is the clutching on the cheap thread.
I understand what your saying. Im just pointing out that the same results can be had doing it on the cheap or in stages.
No offense meant

 

[kviper]

Sounds like you think im picking at you. im not. this is the clutching on the cheap thread.
I understand what your saying. Im just pointing out that the same results can be had doing it on the cheap or in stages.
No offense meant

None taken, good luck!

 

[NOS-PRO]

Barney Maclean - Welcome to TY 4 stroke

There is so much information on this site that will answer pretty much any question you ask the great guys and gals here about your Viper.

I was very unhappy with the performance of my Viper so I tried a bunch of things....clutching is huge on this Viper and as mentioned above, the clutching can't be compared to an Apex (because of the gear reduction). With that said, I, along with stingray and Shagman were not happy buying a $12,000 Viper and having it only run 90mph so with Stingray's idea to try a different weight (Yamaha flatter profile). Shagman and myslef doing real trail results, found something that worked! The parts were stuff that we had lying around, but can be purchased through Yamaha. I didn't want to shell out another big amount for a turbo, but had my heart set on it. But now? Since I put my sled on asphalt and made it even quicker and faster with finding
clutch weights, springs and helix that work, the turbo is off my bucket list.

Last thing,...... it's your money, your sled. Do what is right for you. There are so many
clutch kits out there now it's starting to make my head spin. Just remember dyno results are different than real world results. No matter how you go about it, you will have a better running sled with whoever's clutch kit you go with.

Happy trails!

 

[wavemaster]

Now, for you 8JP belt owners that want to sell your old belts or give your used belts to someone..... I have tried and tested these on my Nytro and the 8JP made the Nytro faster. (See my post in my XTX, setup, ride and review). Don't ask me why it worked....it just did and it was by accident. I grabbed the 8DN belt off of my son's Nytro to do testing and he wanted to ride around. I told him to take the washers out from the back of the clutch and just put the 8JP on so he could ride. He came back and told me that he saw 110 on the speedo. I didn't believe him so I took it for a ride. I saw 114 on the speedo (106 on gps). Like i said, stumbled upon something that worked. Is it the shorter belt with the little longer C-to-C that made it work? The engine compartment is full of belt residue....but it's working so I am leaving it.

Might want to get a hold of some Nytro guys if you have them lying around. All they have to do is take out the washers on the backside of the secondary clutch for correct belt tension. Just an idea.....

Do you "move" the washers from the back to the front? Or does it float a little when you are done?

 

[cannondale27]

Its the washers on the 3 screws on back of secondary not the ones on the shaft.

 

[NOS-PRO]

Do you "move" the washers from the back to the front? Or does it float a little when you are done?

Cannondale is correct, it's the 3 little 8 mm bolts that each have a washer on them to open the sheaves to get correct belt deflection. They are on the backside of the clutch itself.

Using 8DN on Viper - Add a washer (total of 2 washers on each bolt)

Using 8JP on Nytro (or any other sled using 8DN) Take out all washers, only have bolts for belt deflection.