Dynotch shows 2011 APEX Mysteriously lost 10HP vs prototype

[**sj**]

I saw the 2011 dyno data at a private session with Yamaha last year. I was sitting too far away to see the actual numbers vs a 2010, but rough guesstimate was 5-8% more peak and TONS more mid range.
The "track" performance I see on here, and in the shootout MPH numbers, plus my opinion of riding them personally tells me it is making more power. How much? I really don't care as it sure did pull alot harder all over than my 06.

One reason you don't see the sled OEM's posting HP numbers is exactly what you guys are arguing about right now. They put up what they find, then you take the machine to your local dyno shop and see something different.. your goign to whine if its lower. So they rely on independant shops that typcially have a good reputation to do it. If you go and watch the videos on the Cat site where they talk about HP.. the one Cat dude is standing in front of a dyno but they talk about independant dyno shops #'s.
It's the same thing the car companies do with thier "pony" cars. 2011 Mustangs, Camaros and SRT8's ALL make more power than what they advertise so people don't cry foul when they dyno them.

I've dynoed tens of thousands of engines on all sorts of dynos.. from the cheap ones to million dollar dynos. The cheap ones (well relatively speaking) like say a Superflow 90x are tools.. not instruments. Put that engine on some other dyno and I think you MAY possibly get different results. Lots of factors involved.
I went to Dynotech's site.. looks like I have to pay them to see anything. Not sure if I like that or not.
I see people talkign about "lean" and it needed some fuel controller. Well.. on a 150-160 HP N/A engine.. fuel only IS NOT goign to give you that big of a percentage increase in power output unless there was something else way wrong. I'd like to know what "lean" was also. What is lean on one engine may be rich on another. Been doing this stuff for 20+ years for the OEM's, aftermarket and the EPA.
Now if they did add a controller and messed with the fueling.. shame on them as the original reports did not mention anythign about it. If Yamaha knew about it.. shame on both of them.

Id bet dollars to donuts they' leaned it out to meet a certain epa level..

I know certain guys get fixated on the h.p. numbers when in fact its the torque band that matters most...

 

[BlueByYou2000]

Guys, dont get all worked up over the latest dyno #'s. As an earlier poster pointed out, the only thing you should take away from that dyno session is that the Doo, Cat and Yamaha are all very similar. You guys do all realize the older Apex's only make a real 145 HP dont you?

Go out and enjoy your new 2011's, they are the real deal.

 

[Sno-Xr]

After reading most of the posts here, Im not sure if it should be locked,deleted,dogpiled or ????? Im leaving it for now, just try to keep it civil without name calling or direct jabs at peoples opinions.


Thanks, and Happy Holidays!!
Sno

 

[RJH]

It's clear the new dyno reads lower. Jim isn't going to admit that. End of story.

you actually think that???

His level is tested to a ..base line...read the early posts..

 

[RunninRX1]

I saw the 2011 dyno data at a private session with Yamaha last year. I was sitting too far away to see the actual numbers vs a 2010, but rough guesstimate was 5-8% more peak and TONS more mid range.
The "track" performance I see on here, and in the shootout MPH numbers, plus my opinion of riding them personally tells me it is making more power. How much? I really don't care as it sure did pull alot harder all over than my 06.

One reason you don't see the sled OEM's posting HP numbers is exactly what you guys are arguing about right now. They put up what they find, then you take the machine to your local dyno shop and see something different.. your goign to whine if its lower. So they rely on independant shops that typcially have a good reputation to do it. If you go and watch the videos on the Cat site where they talk about HP.. the one Cat dude is standing in front of a dyno but they talk about independant dyno shops #'s.
It's the same thing the car companies do with thier "pony" cars. 2011 Mustangs, Camaros and SRT8's ALL make more power than what they advertise so people don't cry foul when they dyno them.

I've dynoed tens of thousands of engines on all sorts of dynos.. from the cheap ones to million dollar dynos. The cheap ones (well relatively speaking) like say a Superflow 90x are tools.. not instruments. Put that engine on some other dyno and I think you MAY possibly get different results. Lots of factors involved.
I went to Dynotech's site.. looks like I have to pay them to see anything. Not sure if I like that or not.
I see people talkign about "lean" and it needed some fuel controller. Well.. on a 150-160 HP N/A engine.. fuel only IS NOT goign to give you that big of a percentage increase in power output unless there was something else way wrong. I'd like to know what "lean" was also. What is lean on one engine may be rich on another. Been doing this stuff for 20+ years for the OEM's, aftermarket and the EPA.
Now if they did add a controller and messed with the fueling.. shame on them as the original reports did not mention anythign about it. If Yamaha knew about it.. shame on both of them.

Id bet dollars to donuts they' leaned it out to meet a certain epa level..

I know certain guys get fixated on the h.p. numbers when in fact its the torque band that matters most...

I'm not so sure about that.
Emissions regulations for a 2011 are no different than a 2010. Difference from 2007-2009 and 2010/2011 is a slight reduction in HC emissions only. You can get this by leaning the engine out some, but the standard is pretty high to start with. I could calibrate a Yamaha 4 stroke in my sleep to pass the existing standard.
The WOT parts of the standard don't contribute very much to the overall numbers needed where people are saying they leaned the engine out. Its about 12%. Depending if they use "discrete" testing vs "ramped", in discrete testing They have to hold the engine at WOT for 3 minutes (I.E. 100% of maximum engine speed and 100% of maximum engine torque). For ramped, they are allowed to idle for a bit then have a 20 second transition period to WOT where they have to hold 100%/100% RPM/TQ for 120 seconds. They would be foolish to mess with the calibration in this section as the contribution to the overall totals is so low and there are other sections of the testing procedure that will give much better results.

For 2012, so far, the standard is the sort of the same as 2010/2011. They WERE going to change the NOx levels, but some court ruling stopped it. They just have to follow a mathematical formula for HC and CO based on corporate 2010/2011 numbers. I do foresee catalysts being installed on sleds in the future. This is not a bad thing except for a possible cost increase. Won't affect power output really at all.

Now Yamaha MAY be eligible for credits as they use the same basic engine in various other machines. They may be also eligible for banking off smaller sled engines. I'm not 100% sure though as it can get tricky on-road vs off-road and different engine families.

I have access to the numbers all of them submitted, not sure I can publicly talk about them though. I get to see/do ALOT of stuff at the EPA I can't talk about. Its fun stuff. One thing I am working now with them that will be out in 5 or 6 years is VERY exciting. Think of BIG power, high MPG and very good emissions #'s in your street vehicles. My last project with them I got invited to the White House to meet with the President and Vice President.. I went drag racing instead Rather work on a low 6 second drag car than meet some yahoo politicians.

 

[tcona-AGT]

After reading most of the posts here, Im not sure if it should be locked,deleted,dogpiled or ?????

Sno

Please--All of the above!!!!!
That's enough.

 

[MrSled]

We cant have civil discussions, right??.... maybe the intelligence level is lacking!!