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First Impressions - SR-Vipers

Seems like this is a huge step forward compared to anything Yamaha currently offers . . . cannot believe all the haters already!
 

Just a recap...
I really wish they made it feel more "at home" for us Yamaha loyalists. Cat chassis... sure OK... why not. But can we get a vector gauge, clear Nytro LED taillight, non-cat silhouette ski loops... and some other Yamaha carry over parts maybe?

I'll keep asking maybe we will get some.

:)
 
Tuner skiis or pilots would be my first mod unless you want to spend $200 on good Dualies.Hoping and it has been said the Vipers we are seeing are Prototypes and those minor tweaks you and I mention may be on the production sleds.Heck it wouldnt suprise me to see cat owners buying Tuner skiis already!
 
Okay guys, just went to the pubic unveiling in Mpls and was gonna start a new thread on my first impression, but since this thread is already up and running I'll post some observations here.

1. The Nytro is a dry-sump motor right, so my first question to the Yamaha reps was - Where's the oil tank? Answer: There is a separate cover (a cover on top of a cover if you will) over the chain case ... this houses the oil. Both the chain case and the oil tank have separate sight tubes, so you can check the oil, but if you want to get at the chain case to to make gearing changes, you're gonna have to pull the oil tank as well. The front motor mounts have been moved up (higher on the engine). It's not a new casting on the block ... instead, they have added small aluminum pieces (separate from the block) that are positioned just above the original mounts, which allows the motor to mount into the procross chassis. The rear mounts appeared to be welded onto the heat exchanger, and there are coolant passages running through the clutch side mount. The motor is cooled by a heat exchanger in front of the track and a large radiator over the motor.

2. I did learn that the gearing will be Yamaha, as Cat does not make gearing tall enough for the Yamaha clutches. Interesting side note: I heard that Cat was reluctant to let Yamaha use their clutches, but Yamaha could not make the Cat clutches work with the Nytro motor, and it was ony after Yamaha began testing with its clutches that they realized they needed taller gearing. As for adjusting chain tension, I was told it's done "automatically". Anybody worried about that?

3. Horsepower I'm told is down slightly due the header, which did look like a quality piece BTW - manifold flanges were stout, and although the pipe was a little rusty, the welds looked decent. The 3-into-1 collector is properly stepped up, which should help with flow. Let's hope the prototype will become a production piece here. I could see this header being a stamped piece instead of an assembly of welded tubing. More important than the HP lost by the header design IMO, is that I was told the loss is mostly affecting low end torque. This is a big negative IMO ... probably the biggest negative of all, as the best thing about the Nytro motor to me, is the torquey, almost instantaneous throttle response, especially on the low end. This is what gives you the ability to blip the throttle and lift the nose over a bump that you would otherwise plow or pound into. I really hope the low end power lost by this header design is slight ... hopefully even negligible.

4. Plastics and access to the engine did not impress me. Yamaha claims you can access everything you need to by removing the side panels, but from what I saw removing just the side plastics only provides limited access at best. You cannot remove the belt cover without tools, so changing a belt on the trail is going to be a PITA. The top plastic IS NOT EASILY REMOVED - neither are the 2 pieces that cover fuel tank just in front of the seat, which also cover a big portion of the oil tank, chaincase and secondary clutch on the other side.

5. fit and finish - Some parts fit better than others (the top plastic seemed okay). To be fair, these were prototype sleds on display, but one area where I noticed very poor fit up (on every VIPER model) was where the front of the seat butts up to the plastics over the tank. I assume this will be corrected, but if you think the fit of a Nytro seat up against a trail tank is bad, you ain't seen nothing yet. The seat must have a rotocast frame (guessing) which does not conform to the shape of the plastics that cover the fuel tank. Again, guessing here, but a change in design was probably made to the plastics and Yamaha likely didn't have time to change the seat frame. What you notice is that the seat flares out away from the plastics, leaving a considerably poor fit up between the front of the seat and the fuel tank.

6. Chassis construction is mostly procross. I've never really looked close at this chassis, so wouldn't be able to point out difference between the two without having one of each to compare. My impression of the subframe is that while it looks like a good design, it does appear to be light in places. By that I mean the gauge of tubing could be a little heavier in the hoop supports and other areas. I could see some things getting bent or tweaked with aggressive ditch banging. Other parts are no less beefy than say, the Nytro race XC subframe. I was told that you can remove the panel underneath the motor (whether this is the skidplate, I'm not sure) for access to the oil filter though. Good thing, as getting in there would otherwise require a bit of disassembly, making this job about as time consuming as that of the Phazer.

Some positives: I like the handle bar layout. Of course, I didn't have a pair of gloves on, but the grips feel good, buttons are easy to use, and believe or not, the new gauge is pretty nice - no more toggling through a series of functions to get to the settings you want to adjust or see. The sled is a little taller than I expected. It's not as low as an Apex, but is almost as tall (from the seat) as a Nytro. Couldn't get anyone to give me a weight, other than it is about 25 lbs. lighter (than what?). It does look heavy, but of course they told me it feels much lighter.

Rumors overheard: I'm told (and this is rumor only) that Cat will not use Yamaha clutching. Find that hard to swallow ... take it for what it's worth. I also heard Cat refused to run Yamaha tracks - Yamaha supposedly didn't like Cat's track specs, and Cat didn't like the price of Yamaha's tracks - so the rumor is that Cat's sleds will have Cat tracks and Yamaha's will have, well you can figure it out. If true, this is likely where the price differences will be justified. It'll also be easily noticed if a mixup occurs on the production line. lol.

You have to keep in mind that what was on display was essentially a prototype. Yamaha had taken the time to have stickers positioned on key parts (e.g., the header, muffler, etc.) that made it clear that these were prototype sleds, and final production parts could be subject to change. Overall, I was left with some questions as to whether this sled, being made in TRF will have the same level of quality of those being made in Japan. For that to happen, I think Yamaha will have to be standing over Cat's shoulders (breathing down their neck) every step of the way. I was told Cat's production numbers have been cut back due to the lack of snow these past winters, so Yamaha's Viper will help Cat bring their production numbers up. If that's true, I would be even more concerned about QA, as we already know about the issues Cat has had, and that was with lower production ... How will Cat ensure quality when their production increases?

Final Note: There is going to be a demo ride at the old Haydays location tomorrow and Saturday. If you're in the area and want to be among the first to ride one, be there between noon and 4. ;)!
 
OV, Great write up and thanks for sharing. I too am on the fence guys, I am bleed Yamaha on the snow and that is all I will ever own. I love the looks of the Viper, sharpe and clean ( photos anyway). I love the motor as a buddy has an 2011 nitro XTX and would not hesate in buying that machine ! I have anthor buddy who bought the 2012 F1100 turbo snowpro longtrack. Here is what I know of his issues:
1. Reverse issue twice the first year ( no issues this season)
2. tunnel was replaced this season due to stress( warrenty covered ) not sure if it was recall or update. He has seen the viper and it has the updated tunnel already
3. coolant bottle seam leaked. new one replaced under warrenty
4. required belt replacement at 1st 400 miles ( $200.00)
5. replaced factory skis with simmons gen 2 ? went with wider ski

I have ridden his sled and think it rides and handles nice, plush and smooth and very quiet. Easy sit to stand tranfer,
Seat heater was nice ( wet snow day)
Turbo pulled hard but hated the motor sound ( Lack of)

My apex gives up over 20 hp and I walk him on the trails and lakes. Deep snow I can't even come close.
I plan on test riding the package before I drop my cash. Over all I think it will give most a great combination and its what most were asking for? just not me... at least today ;)!
 
I still can't believe it, but I may be interested in this model, once I have read up on actual seat-time comments from my fellow TY-ers. I am kind of on the fence like many of my Yamaha-bleeding folks, but I also like what I see, in that the chassis seems much lighter with a better Y-motor. :4STroke:

I am still on my RX-1ton, and I was waiting for the next generation of sleds to purchase, maybe next year? In the meantime, I may buy this sled this fall. :-o

RX-E ;)!
 
OVR4D said:
Final Note: There is going to be a demo ride at the old Haydays location tommorrow and Saturday. If you're in the area and want to be among the first to ride one, be there between noon and 4. ;)!

wait, whut?

as in over by waldoch?
 

Yep, right there. I asked if they would just be riding in the open field next to Waldoch Sports and was told that they might be letting you take them out on the trails. Bring your gear and drivers license. ;)!
 
At least Its going on a chassis that has had real world riding on it and they know what the issues are
read a whole ton of people angry about being "guinea pigs" over the years when its a brand new platform released..........
 
OVR4D said:
I heard that Cat was reluctant to let Yamaha use their clutches, but Yamaha could not make the Cat clutches work with the Nytro motor, and it was ony after Yamaha began testing with its clutches that they realized they needed taller gearing. As for adjusting chain tension, I was told it's done "automatically". Anybody worried about that?

Rumors overheard: I'm told (and this is rumor only) that Cat will not use Yamaha clutching. Find that hard to swallow ... take it for what it's worth. I also heard Cat refused to run Yamaha tracks - Yamaha supposedly didn't like Cat's track specs, and Cat didn't like the price of Yamaha's tracks - so the rumor is that Cat's sleds will have Cat tracks and Yamaha's will have, well you can figure it out. If true, this is likely where the price differences will be justified. It'll also be easily noticed if a mixup occurs on the production line. lol.

Anyone else see the irony in that? lol Yamaha won't use Cat's clutches because they don't work right on the Viper, however rumor has it Cat still might try and use their own clutch on this sled? I know exactly why that is... profit margin... Cat's Chinese sourced clutches are likely much cheaper to buy then Yamaha's clutches from Japan, but still... lol

I'd say if the clutch rumors are true you would have to be a pretty hard core Cat loyalist to purchase their model over the Viper.

Last, I think seeing what Cat introduces for '14 will be pretty interesting. Are they really going to be using 3 engine suppliers next year? Yamaha, Suzuki and an in-house engine? I will also be very interested to see if the 1100 T is back or if they are just going to use the Yamaha 4-Stroke and go back to relying on larger 2 strokes for a higher performance option.

The problem with Cat isn't their chassis or suspension engineering. That stuff is all top notch. The biggest problem is they are a small company that must maintain a higher margin then the big boys. To maintain that margin they do rely on the "lowest bidder" when it comes to suppliers. Hopefully Yamaha has checked out those supplies and that they meet a certain standard before Yamaha is put on the hood.

I think the new SR Viper will be a good sled, but in it's first model year you might want to consider purchasing the YES plan if it doesn't cost too much.
 
OVR4D said:

Yep, right there. I asked if they would just be riding in the open field next to Waldoch Sports and was told that they might be letting you take them out on the trails. Bring your gear and drivers license. ;)!

My parts for the phazer are supposed to be in today at waldoch. I might just haveta bring my gear with me!
 
I think the biggest concern is NOT the chasiss, but as to where they are being built. I think if Yamaha took the Procross chassis and built the sled themselves then you would not see so much negativity.

As far as quality of the new Viper, I don't think it is Apex Quality, but I think and hope its better then the Nytro Quality.

Yamaha has alot of riding on this and IMO, they can't afford to have it screwed up....
 
hate to break it to ya, the Quality you expect from the yamaha name won't be there.
The chassis is fine, buy them and assemble yourself,yami.
Cats Chaincase is Garbage. between the reverse mechanism and case internals, its a Grenade.
Fit and finish is horrible.
The bodywork is a nightmare to remove, and i can just see the rigged motor mounts snapping on the guys that jump em.
 
From what I have already read if the Viper is released with less HP than the Nytro it will be a disappointment. The low end of the Nytro is what has made it what it is, considering the handling issues.
 


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