Hot start flash service bulletin

[stingray719]

I don't get why it's working on some and not on others. All I know is after my re-flash I had a low end pop, kick back and poor throttle response. Another member here had the kick back and took out his starter (broke the casting), stripped the starter gear and all the chunks went into the stator and windings.

Was able to purchase a used 2014 original ECU and compare the difference between the 2014 and the Reflash (2015). Definitely noticeable "pop", kick back and slower mph on top end with the Reflash.

You and I have discussed this at length, and yes there seems to be quite a difference in the flash that my guess is faulty equipment (dealers not using clean laptop plugged into AC instead of battery, etc). Both our Vipers here ran better with improved top end, actually gained rpm on top. But, I did have to stop the tech and have him reboot the laptop as mentioned earlier to get a clean flash on second sled. Maybe next flash (or EVO flash) will be the trick?

 

[Dmarks]

You and I have discussed this at length, and yes there seems to be quite a difference in the flash that my guess is faulty equipment (dealers not using clean laptop plugged into AC instead of battery, etc). Both our Vipers here ran better with improved top end, actually gained rpm on top. But, I did have to stop the tech and have him reboot the laptop as mentioned earlier to get a clean flash on second sled. Maybe next flash (or EVO flash) will be the trick?

So have any 2015 sleds that were flashed from the factory had these problems?

 

[RTX]

Not only the starter.. but the exhaust too. I've seen an exhaust explode under pressure from kickback, as well as being flooded from not starting in cold weather.

I was to the understanding, from my dealer.. that there is a new flash coming?

Huh!!!
Thats interesting that you posted that.
I have only heard mine kick back twice but i did notice on the last ride of the season my exhaust sounded louder.
When i pulled the muffler off to replace it with the evo muffler i bought i noticed the stock muffler had a bulge in it like it was ready to blow.
I thought the mufflers were just cat junk but now you have me wondering if the kickback caused this???
Im headed to my camp this weekend, gonna drag up my muffler and see what my dealer has to say about it.
Should be replaced under warranty at the least.

 

[RTX]

I've emailed evo about the reflash. They never get back to you

I had some issues regarding a purchase i made from jim/EVO back in april. We played email and phone tag for a while but once we finally got together we were able to resolve the problem to my complete satisfaction.
With that said, my last conversation with jim was about 8/20 or so.
I specifically asked about the reflash because this is something i want bad!!
jim told me this product (reflash) would be ready for haydays. He had resolved the issues that were plaguing him with the ecu burning up after reflash. or whatever the problem was .

Did anyone see him or his booth at haydays?

 

[Dealerjohn]

The previous owner of the sled had the muffler covered under warranty. I'd imagine that was exactly what happened to yours. hopefully there were no leaks in the muffler and nothing else was damaged.

 

[NOS-PRO]

I had some issues regarding a purchase i made from jim/EVO back in april. We played email and phone tag for a while but once we finally got together we were able to resolve the problem to my complete satisfaction.
With that said, my last conversation with jim was about 8/20 or so.
I specifically asked about the reflash because this is something i want bad!!
jim told me this product (reflash) would be ready for haydays. He had resolved the issues that were plaguing him with the ecu burning up after reflash. or whatever the problem was .

Did anyone see him or his booth at haydays?

I talked to Jim from EVO at Hay Days and yes....the performance flash is ready to test. I have a dyno session scheduled with him and want to say he apologizes for the long wait on this. He is busier than flies on a fresh pile so hoping everything goes well and I have numbers for you guys soon.

As for the stock re-flash, if you had a 2014, the idle and start circuit were given less fuel which caused the popping and hard start. This was verified on my data logger. Now for Stingray, being up in altitude probably did not affect him as much because of the thin air would have made the sled richer and wouldn't have noticed any issues.

Someone asked about the 2015. When mine was re-flashed TA Motorsports could not reconnect to my ECU to re-download as the software notices it was done already so it cancels out thinking it is completed. I am betting this would happen to the 2015 because they would/should have the latest version of the program. Once re-flashed, you CANNOT go back to the 2014 program. I was lucky enough to find a 2014 ECU original so I could send my re-flashed unit to Jim at EVO for the performance flash which has been there since April so they could work on it.

 

[yamamarc]

I talked to Jim from EVO at Hay Days and yes....the performance flash is ready to test. I have a dyno session scheduled with him and want to say he apologizes for the long wait on this. He is busier than flies on a fresh pile so hoping everything goes well and I have numbers for you guys soon.

As for the stock re-flash, if you had a 2014, the idle and start circuit were given less fuel which caused the popping and hard start. This was verified on my data logger. Now for Stingray, being up in altitude probably did not affect him as much because of the thin air would have made the sled richer and wouldn't have noticed any issues.

Someone asked about the 2015. When mine was re-flashed TA Motorsports could not reconnect to my ECU to re-download as the software notices it was done already so it cancels out thinking it is completed. I am betting this would happen to the 2015 because they would/should have the latest version of the program. Once re-flashed, you CANNOT go back to the 2014 program. I was lucky enough to find a 2014 ECU original so I could send my re-flashed unit to Jim at EVO for the performance flash which has been there since April so they could work on it.

Hey Terry hope your doing well
Did Jim from EVO give you any specifics on what to expect from the reflash he has working so hard on?

Marc

 

[NOS-PRO]

Hey bud, doing well.

Jim at EVO mentioned higher rev, adjusted fuel and timing.

 

[wavemaster]

The re-flash from a programmatic/computer sense isn't magic. It has been being done since the early space programs. A well designed system meant to be updated has a minimum of 2 locations for programs, A and B and the ECU can boot/load either one.

They typically leave the factory with both programmed to 1.0. In the event of a boot failure (depending on the error) the system can boot to the other side.
When an update comes out it is written to the side not currently in use. If it programs completely and the checksum matches, it will start using the new program. If it doesn't check out or crash during update it reverts back.

A lesser designed system constrained to only one program (money/storage/design are some reasons why) will operate similar with a critical difference, if it doesn't boot afterwards there is no fall back. These are very prone to catastrophic failure if power is removed while updating or the update is interrupted. Some have temp "b" sides to flash and after a successful reboot will then use the new one.

As far as the program goes based on the ECU and its revision number, it will be the same all the way around. Unless this is a VERY poorly designed ECU, you can't have a partial, or "different" flash, it either all comes in and the checksums match or they don't.

This rant isn't about the "program" or what it contains, just about how the updates and hardware generally work. What would make two sleds run differently after getting the same flash is most likely components, assembly, and environment. By components I don't just mean the sensors and ECU, but also the components that make up the ECU and sensors. Change a brand/model/alloy etc. in a temp sensor and it will react differently (timing as well as output). Mix and match electronic components (cpu/ram/resistors/caps etc.)and the variables stack up fast. Manufacturers always try to run in batches where all the components match however it just isn't possible to always keep everything the same. They don't make most of the discrete components so they have to rely on what they get.

We have run into all sorts of gremlins through the years with controllers and software. AAGR in our case software is software, it does the same thing each time, over and over. Don't get me wrong - the program has to be right because it will do the same thing WRONG over and over as well - but it will do it consistently. When things react differently between unit 1 and unit 2 when they are built the same it is usually hardware. Fortunately you can often get "around" bad hardware issues with good software - go figure.

My Viper2.0 (2015 XTX) came with the new flash and if I didn't stay on the key for a second after start, it would often have a kick back. I don't trust others on it just because of the start/kickback issue. Based on the fact that the flash fixed some issues while creating others tells me to count on a new flash coming.

 

[Yamadog]

So have any 2015 sleds that were flashed from the factory had these problems?

Mine does!

 

[wavemaster]

Mine does!

x2

 

[stingray719]

The re-flash from a programmatic/computer sense isn't magic. It has been being done since the early space programs. A well designed system meant to be updated has a minimum of 2 locations for programs, A and B and the ECU can boot/load either one.

They typically leave the factory with both programmed to 1.0. In the event of a boot failure (depending on the error) the system can boot to the other side.
When an update comes out it is written to the side not currently in use. If it programs completely and the checksum matches, it will start using the new program. If it doesn't check out or crash during update it reverts back.

A lesser designed system constrained to only one program (money/storage/design are some reasons why) will operate similar with a critical difference, if it doesn't boot afterwards there is no fall back. These are very prone to catastrophic failure if power is removed while updating or the update is interrupted. Some have temp "b" sides to flash and after a successful reboot will then use the new one.

As far as the program goes based on the ECU and its revision number, it will be the same all the way around. Unless this is a VERY poorly designed ECU, you can't have a partial, or "different" flash, it either all comes in and the checksums match or they don't.

This rant isn't about the "program" or what it contains, just about how the updates and hardware generally work. What would make two sleds run differently after getting the same flash is most likely components, assembly, and environment. By components I don't just mean the sensors and ECU, but also the components that make up the ECU and sensors. Change a brand/model/alloy etc. in a temp sensor and it will react differently (timing as well as output). Mix and match electronic components (cpu/ram/resistors/caps etc.)and the variables stack up fast. Manufacturers always try to run in batches where all the components match however it just isn't possible to always keep everything the same. They don't make most of the discrete components so they have to rely on what they get.

We have run into all sorts of gremlins through the years with controllers and software. AAGR in our case software is software, it does the same thing each time, over and over. Don't get me wrong - the program has to be right because it will do the same thing WRONG over and over as well - but it will do it consistently. When things react differently between unit 1 and unit 2 when they are built the same it is usually hardware. Fortunately you can often get "around" bad hardware issues with good software - go figure.

My Viper2.0 (2015 XTX) came with the new flash and if I didn't stay on the key for a second after start, it would often have a kick back. I don't trust others on it just because of the start/kickback issue. Based on the fact that the flash fixed some issues while creating others tells me to count on a new flash coming.

Very well said. I might add that some flashes measure the existing variables...adjust...and flash (think Harley stage 2 screaming eagle software). Not sure that is what the CAT flash is doing or not but as CAT is so concerned about matching flash to the serial number it makes me wonder.

Also good flash software has very close checksums. But not so long ago with computers more than a few were flashed and had "issues" that were only solved by a reflash. I had an ASUS motherboard do that it was very annoying.

As you said all good flash software and hardware now has fallback if something goes wrong, but not all do and I suspect in the snowmobile world cost is king and not flash safety. In the early 2000's a virus came out that rewrote the bios (reflash) and Dell along with some other brands had to replace the motherboard as no fallback was built in....that was a wakeup call for the safeguards you mentioned.

OK, long post aside I wish I could get into the flash computer my dealer has and find out what kind of flash/ECU this is.


EDIT: seeing that 2015 have the kickback on more than a few I now wonder if it really is hardware not the flash. Every component has a variance allowed by the builder. If several components are ALL on the loose side or all on the tight side you can get variance stack and be out of spec. Just guessing though as I have not seen this firsthand or got to test one

 

[cannondale27]

I can tell you right now that there is no fallback program. If the download fails or goes wrong the only way to get the sled going is to call Yamaha or Cat and I believe they completely reprogram everything. If it's a Saturday or holiday you have a problem. Also it's all done online. The program is not stored at dealer.

 

[mtotguy]

EDIT: seeing that 2015 have the kickback on more than a few I now wonder if it really is hardware not the flash. Every component has a variance allowed by the builder. If several components are ALL on the loose side or all on the tight side you can get variance stack and be out of spec. Just guessing though as I have not seen this firsthand or got to test one[/QUOTE]

My 2014 never had a kickback until I had it reflashed. Since the reflash i have gone thru 2 starters. Makes me think it's not hardware.

 

[stingray719]

I can tell you right now that there is no fallback program. If the download fails or goes wrong the only way to get the sled going is to call Yamaha or Cat and I believe they completely reprogram everything. If it's a Saturday or holiday you have a problem. Also it's all done online. The program is not stored at dealer.

Now I remember this, and I think you had said this before. Very good idea doing remote install from a manufacture protection point, but terrible if you are end user.

Let me explain. I have been a computer professional for decades and it is a standard practice to download an entire program to the computer before installing so the file checksums can be verified. If you try to do an install remote the checksums are for each portion checked, and not the whole file so the allowance for missing bits is way to large and many failures occur. Some large programs won't install remote for this reason. That being said doing a flash remotely is a terrible idea in my opinion.

But after seeing that 2015 do it too I am inclined to think that the flash alone may not be the issue and like battery or starter failures more than one issue may be present. Just guessing though