MS17 with SQ 2.5” questions

[KnappAttack]

Sounds like you need to pull the valve covers and check the cam timing too. Makes sense what max said, Ive watched the exhaust cam skip backwards with just a bit of backwards crank turning if the cam tensioner is about ready to ratchet to the next step tighter position, which you don't know at all where that it is at.

 

[Motorhead]

soo when you took clutch appart... did you turn engine clockwise??? or have you blown a belt??? if so you have skipped a tooth on your cam timing chain... i had same thing happen and was chasing lost rpm for half the year and only when TD went to do my cams for stage 6 did we find it was off by one tooth.... ran fine everywhere else but would not pull RPM.8800 max.... i just got chance to read more and i'll bet you a quart of bustane that you have turned engine backwards.... it is bang on what happened to mine.

No sir we both know better then that!

 

[Motorhead]

Sounds like you need to pull the valve covers and check the cam timing too. Makes sense what max said, Ive watched the exhaust cam skip backwards with just a bit of backwards crank turning if the cam tensioner is about ready to ratchet to the next step tighter position, which you don't know at all where that it is at.

That would be my after season thing. But this same scenario is happening to two of us at same time. So both of us know better then that!
I have put on 400 miles or so with this tune. Adjust and trailer 1 hour away for some really nice fast trails, so mine is very rideable and still has some Sidewinder power with lower rpms, just lower rpms and uses more fuel!

 

[max rolph]

Hmm ok , soo if you have done nothing else but change tune and.... if you put everything back to what you had last year... when power is increased you automatically should pull more RPM, its just science, have you tried reinstalling the 16 tune just to see if it runs properly again. this is why i always suggest only do one mod at a time to see what differents it makes.. and then you see what money was well spent. more boost should make more power which should up your rpm with your previous clutching.

 

[KnappAttack]

That would be my after season thing. But this same scenario is happening to two of us at same time. So both of us know better then that!
I have put on 400 miles or so with this tune. Adjust and trailer 1 hour away for some really nice fast trails, so mine is very rideable and still has some Sidewinder power with lower rpms, just lower rpms and uses more fuel!

You might know better than that, but even the slightest bit of rearward rotation can skip the exhaust cam if the tensioner is just right. I've seen it happen with my own eyes.

For the little bit of work it is to pull the tank and check it, I think would be worth it, but thats just me.

You are maybe making stock power levels is all from the sounds of it, I'd sure want to know. Max is telling you the same thing happened to his...

 

[max rolph]

it could be just a coinsidence of acting the same as mine... we chased the lost rpm for half of last year and i even started a post about it. it rode ok and pulled still but would not go over 8800 rpm no matter how light i made weights and i had stage 4, now this is just a symptom the same as your discribing and Knapp has seen it aswell.... not to say that thats what has happened to your two sleds... it might just be as simple as the tune is wrong. really the best way to see is have it re flashed with what you had prior and see if it wrks the same as before.... if it does then its tune, ... IF IT DOESNT... then its a start to do what Knapp said.

 

[Motorhead]

Hmm ok , soo if you have done nothing else but change tune and.... if you put everything back to what you had last year... when power is increased you automatically should pull more RPM, its just science, have you tried reinstalling the 16 tune just to see if it runs properly again. this is why i always suggest only do one mod at a time to see what differents it makes.. and then you see what money was well spent. more boost should make more power which should up your rpm with your previous clutching.

I would surely do that if I had the bundle tunes!

Problem is when I bought this package the SQ2.5” comes bare without shield, insulation and two needed brackets for 100% stock look! So I stole those off my old muffler and put them onto the SQ, with some welding and fabrication!

It looks stock and this muffler runs much cooler then the 16 and it’s muffler!

I was just told that I should pull my air filter for a short blast to see if it changes anything!!!

Other guy who is having same problem is doing just what you said though!

 

[Motorhead]

Hmm ok , soo if you have done nothing else but change tune and.... if you put everything back to what you had last year... when power is increased you automatically should pull more RPM, its just science, have you tried reinstalling the 16 tune just to see if it runs properly again. this is why i always suggest only do one mod at a time to see what differents it makes.. and then you see what money was well spent. more boost should make more power which should up your rpm with your previous clutching.

Yes very easy to get sideways when too many steps are taken at once! Been there more then once.

 

[max rolph]

the 2.5 muffler def flows more air but should not be that drastic a diff even with the 16tune, sucks not to have the flasher other wise you could just switch between tunes to see what is wrong. you should never have to go backwards in clutching when making more power, it will automatically need more weight to control rpm, especially when we are talking turbo boost as it makes more torque and power all through the range, two strokes will act different as a pipe may need more rpm and weights may need to be changed or spring to acumpany the mod.... but in my 40 years of doing this, never have i had a mod... that makes more power... take less weight! i always leave clutching alone after a mod and it will tell you... just like a DYNO ... if the mod made or subtracted power by it reving higher or accelerating faster through the power range.. CVT clutchs are basically a dyno by them selves.

 

[Motorhead]

the 2.5 muffler def flows more air but should not be that drastic a diff even with the 16tune, sucks not to have the flasher other wise you could just switch between tunes to see what is wrong. you should never have to go backwards in clutching when making more power, it will automatically need more weight to control rpm, especially when we are talking turbo boost as it makes more torque and power all through the range, two strokes will act different as a pipe may need more rpm and weights may need to be changed or spring to acumpany the mod.... but in my 40 years of doing this, never have i had a mod... that makes more power... take less weight! i always leave clutching alone after a mod and it will tell you... just like a DYNO ... if the mod made or subtracted power by it reving higher or accelerating faster through the power range.. CVT clutchs are basically a dyno by them selves.

Agree, that’s how it’s always worked for me, more power more weight for same rpm!

 

[max rolph]

Agree, that’s how it’s always worked for me, more power more weight for same rpm!

soo i think either the tune is too rich and and is making less power.... or the chain has slipped, im very cautious too and i think mine jumped when i blew a belt or when i was pulling debrie out of clutch and it may have turned back wards a little bit and just that little bit skiiped the tooth.... just possibly a coincidence but mine acted identical way for month.

 

[Motorhead]

soo i think either the tune is too rich and and is making less power.... or the chain has slipped, im very cautious too and i think mine jumped when i blew a belt or when i was pulling debrie out of clutch and it may have turned back wards a little bit and just that little bit skiiped the tooth.... just possibly a coincidence but mine acted identical way for month.

That would totally suck, but anyways first things first. I shall add some Octane Boost to some 93, and try it. If that doesn’t change anything I shall pull the air filter element for a trial test. Meanwhile the other friend with exact tune package problem is going back to MS16 SM. So I shall report back and Thank everyone for their interest in our dilemma, including TD!

 

[zxtyler]

Motörhead. Have you had the the rpms you wanted with a 22t top gear? Ever ?

 

[Motorhead]

Motörhead. Have you had the the rpms you wanted with a 22t top gear? Ever ?

Many years of 8950-9050 rpms with the 22T.
My first tune was a TD Ecotrail with the stock weights with added washer on the tip for extra weight. That set up ran the stock helix and both stock clutch springs. At same time dealer package included machining of both clutches! Also added the BOV. I ground the tip weight down until I got above listed rpm.

Next tune a year later was the Max Spool 16 2 bar tune. Same everything except added the 35/39 helix to keep revs down on top to that perfect 8950-9050.

Me next tune was another upgrade tune, this time added the 3 bar sensor and the MS16 3 bar tune. The XS825 belt helped me keep the revs again pretty close to 9000 or more!

And now the MS17 and you’ve read the rest!

During these past tunes I have used a set of Dalton DTA1 now and then but prefer the stock weights modified!,

 

[justinator]

Many years of 8950-9050 rpms with the 22T.
My first tune was a TD Ecotrail with the stock weights with added washer on the tip for extra weight. That set up ran the stock helix and both stock clutch springs. At same time dealer package included machining of both clutches! Also added the BOV. I ground the tip weight down until I got above listed rpm.

Next tune a year later was the Max Spool 16 2 bar tune. Same everything except added the 35/39 helix to keep revs down on top to that perfect 8950-9050.

Me next tune was another upgrade tune, this time added the 3 bar sensor and the MS16 3 bar tune. The XS825 belt helped me keep the revs again pretty close to 9000 or more!

And now the MS17 and you’ve read the rest!

During these past tunes I have used a set of Dalton DTA1 now and then but prefer the stock weights modified!,

Are you using dtay1 or qay70? You mentioned earlier you had the daltons down around 73 grams……..if these are dtay1 they weigh 74.9 grams empty just so you know so you wouldnt be able to get them to 73. If you mean qay70’s then that would make more sense