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MS17 with SQ 2.5” questions

Are you using dtay1 or qay70? You mentioned earlier you had the daltons down around 73 grams……..if these are dtay1 they weigh 74.9 grams empty just so you know so you wouldnt be able to get them to 73. If you mean qay70’s then that would make more sense
Yes the 70’s. Thanks for catching my screw up!
 

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I run same tune, since I started trying clutching even with sled stock years ago I have struggled to pull weight. Blamed it on my weight. But things were off and then when I tuned it was more off. Last season I put ms17 on and exhaust with intake and it ran 9000 pretty steady. Checked where weights were at this summer and it was right about 68 grams :0 so this summer I had thunder products go though my clutches and have the faces machined and whatever else they wanted to do (I always kept them clean but wanted them machined and balanced) also had them out in their primary rollers. While sled was apart I put in new charge tubes, and drained the little bit of oil that got into intercooler out. I had updated to closed loop also, Other than those things sleds identical. Currently at 77.1g and unfortunately after a night of rain Friday everything was slush so couldn’t check if it helped, but at 74g it was 9300-9350 rpm in some slightly packed down but still loose snow. Runs totally different.

That said I’m also running 8jp still so should be 2-3g heavier and a 32/36 helix which should be a touch heavier aswell. I’d say you should be in 73-74 range if I had to guess.

So basically same spot at you, maybe closed loop fixed some a/f ratio issues, maybe the charge tubes had minor leak, maybe the cpl tablespoons of oil in intercooler or maybe the clamps we’re loose. Or less like but still worth the $200 Maybe something was bound in clutch, but to have all faces redone, balanced and new primary rollers and some other fun stuff they wanted to do while machining is worth it to me.
 
I run same tune, since I started trying clutching even with sled stock years ago I have struggled to pull weight. Blamed it on my weight. But things were off and then when I tuned it was more off. Last season I put ms17 on and exhaust with intake and it ran 9000 pretty steady. Checked where weights were at this summer and it was right about 68 grams :0 so this summer I had thunder products go though my clutches and have the faces machined and whatever else they wanted to do (I always kept them clean but wanted them machined and balanced) also had them out in their primary rollers. While sled was apart I put in new charge tubes, and drained the little bit of oil that got into intercooler out. I had updated to closed loop also, Other than those things sleds identical. Currently at 77.1g and unfortunately after a night of rain Friday everything was slush so couldn’t check if it helped, but at 74g it was 9300-9350 rpm in some slightly packed down but still loose snow. Runs totally different.

That said I’m also running 8jp still so should be 2-3g heavier and a 32/36 helix which should be a touch heavier aswell. I’d say you should be in 73-74 range if I had to guess.

So basically same spot at you, maybe closed loop fixed some a/f ratio issues, maybe the charge tubes had minor leak, maybe the cpl tablespoons of oil in intercooler or maybe the clamps we’re loose. Or less like but still worth the $200 Maybe something was bound in clutch, but to have all faces redone, balanced and new primary rollers and some other fun stuff they wanted to do while machining is worth it to me.
Yeah I’m flustered and missing my old set up right now!

Many have given me suggestions and insight! TD was great with putting a MS16 3 bar on my register for free! So I will be able to try my old tune out which will tell me something with direction!
 
more power more weight... power is being lost some where compared to your 16 tune.
Yes. I have taken your idea of trying the MS16 sm tune again. So when my sm comes in I will have it flashed and see how that one runs! So next week my good used stock muffler should show!!

TD has been great working with me! But they must hate me for being such a bother!
 
Many years of 8950-9050 rpms with the 22T.
My first tune was a TD Ecotrail with the stock weights with added washer on the tip for extra weight. That set up ran the stock helix and both stock clutch springs. At same time dealer package included machining of both clutches! Also added the BOV. I ground the tip weight down until I got above listed rpm.

Next tune a year later was the Max Spool 16 2 bar tune. Same everything except added the 35/39 helix to keep revs down on top to that perfect 8950-9050.

Me next tune was another upgrade tune, this time added the 3 bar sensor and the MS16 3 bar tune. The XS825 belt helped me keep the revs again pretty close to 9000 or more!

And now the MS17 and you’ve read the rest!

During these past tunes I have used a set of Dalton DTA1 now and then but prefer the stock weights modified!,
I'm sure you know this but that primary clutch is your built-in dynamometer. If you need less weight to run same RPM as before, any you haven't changed anything else, HP is down. And the opposite is true also.
 
I'm sure you know this but that primary clutch is your built-in dynamometer. If you need less weight to run same RPM as before, any you haven't changed anything else, HP is down. And the opposite is true also.
Yes this has been very strange.
And without AFR or data log it’s just old school knowledge! My bet is it’s rich, pulling timing for some reason! Really hoping it isn’t cam chain slipped!

I’m able to go backwards for a bit, thanks to TD! They are putting the 16 tune in my register so dealer can flash it for me! Shall go back to MS 16 3 bar in a bit!

Hoping my rpm’s will be back with that 16sm set up!
 
And you will let us know right away correct? I’m struggling with similar problems.
 
And you will let us know right away correct? I’m struggling with similar problems.
Yes I shall!
So your primary clutch weights are Dalton’s?
Stock spring or Dalton?
Sounds like you had high rpm with that lighter weight, so the 77 gram should lower those rpms a lot.

Problem with using Daltons with stock spring is when you get under 75 grams or so, engagement climbs to high for me. But when I tried 77 grams, they were pretty low and right where I prefer, 2600-2800 engagement. So their lower engagement primary spring would be a must for me when trying their weights on the lighter side!
 
CHANGE ONE THING AT A TIME.... or you will chase your tail, once you go to your 16 tune set everything back to what you had run before, the mod exhaust will still wrk with 16 tune... so no need to change that back
 
Finally received my good used stock muffler with yesterday’s mail delivery!
So I put it on and trailered an hour North, to try out the newly installed MS16 with the stock muffler.

Revs were not where they should have been, so even though I am still in (Denial) about the Cam chain timing off by one tooth thing, it’s probably what some of you said! Much the same as the17 with the SQ2.5”!

I know that I did not spin my clutch the wrong way, not even a bit!

Trails were so dam smooth, hard and icy from our recent 60 degree day and rain, and then yesterday’s re-freeze
With grooming done during the night prior, provided me with some Hang On turn on’s.
Dam thing was breaking loose when nailing it at 80 and much higher. 120 on the meter is obtained really quick still.

My thoughts when comparing the 17 to 16 tune is, 17 is rich and 16 is much cleaner running tune.
I’m sure the 17 is more susceptible to warmer weather and lower Octane fuel, but this chain timing being off must exasperate the 17 tune problems that otherwise would make it leaner, cleaner and noticeably more powerful !

What really makes this crazy to me is that my riding/racing partner has been experiencing the same. He is going for a trial run this weekend with his new 16 tune and Stock muffler. He’s got stock weights which were modified years ago for the EcoTrail and 16 tunes. All else for him is stock, so that same set up should net him 9000 give or take 50-100 rpms!

But anyways thanks to all for your great info, and rest assured I shall keep all, in this loop, once I check the Cam timing!
 
Here’s where I am at for those who who have interest in my and my buddies tune problem.
Cam timing and valve clearance inspection proved All OK, so at this point knowing that We are not chasing that problem, we tried clutch and belt combinations to find our rpms on our now MS16 Sm tune.

Found that we could not run the exact belt, clutch weight and helix combo as I did on last year’s set up.
Cannot run the XS825 belt if I want rpms.

With much testing and not many local spots to do that, we copied my old set up on buddies sled of, (JP belt, 35/39 helix and 73.9 grams on stock weights with washer added to tip, stock springs on both clutches. 9000 rpm, much better fuel mileage and it pulls hard all the way through!

My set up is a bit different but much the same results.
Blue Brown Blue Yamaha primary, stock secondary spring, stock weights with end rivet drilled out a bit for 72.2 grams, stock 35 helix and JP belt.

County RR bed we were able to see 124 on dream meter on fresh groomed mealy going.
On ice on a more local trail/road that has a downhill slope to it, more them 130 on dream meter is doable.
We both see 17.2 - 17.5 Boost!
So long story short, sleds seem to be back to where they were with the MS16 tunes.

I guess I would need a race strip instead of riding trails if I were to go back to MS17 with SQ 2.5”, near home!
Still cannot believe the difference found with the 8JP versus the XS825, whereas it was my belt of choice and helped keep rpms in check last year.
 
Here’s where I am at for those who who have interest in my and my buddies tune problem.
Cam timing and valve clearance inspection proved All OK, so at this point knowing that We are not chasing that problem, we tried clutch and belt combinations to find our rpms on our now MS16 Sm tune.

Found that we could not run the exact belt, clutch weight and helix combo as I did on last year’s set up.
Cannot run the XS825 belt if I want rpms.

With much testing and not many local spots to do that, we copied my old set up on buddies sled of, (JP belt, 35/39 helix and 73.9 grams on stock weights with washer added to tip, stock springs on both clutches. 9000 rpm, much better fuel mileage and it pulls hard all the way through!

My set up is a bit different but much the same results.
Blue Brown Blue Yamaha primary, stock secondary spring, stock weights with end rivet drilled out a bit for 72.2 grams, stock 35 helix and JP belt.

County RR bed we were able to see 124 on dream meter on fresh groomed mealy going.
On ice on a more local trail/road that has a downhill slope to it, more them 130 on dream meter is doable.
We both see 17.2 - 17.5 Boost!
So long story short, sleds seem to be back to where they were with the MS16 tunes.

I guess I would need a race strip instead of riding trails if I were to go back to MS17 with SQ 2.5”, near home!
Still cannot believe the difference found with the 8JP versus the XS825, whereas it was my belt of choice and helped keep rpms in check last year.

Thanks for sharing all of this.. Just to be clear.. you are back on MS16 SM with the stock muffler or with the SQ? Stock helix, stock belt, modified weights.
 


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