My Phazer MTX Turbo Project Log

[cannondale27]

That would explain a LOT. The valves from the 08 look perfect and it seems so unlikely that a seal was cracked. Its been sitting for a few years now.




Hmm. Thats good to know. Those CP's are silly expensive tho. I wonder if Hurricane can't maybe get some better pricing on them. I was just your average Joe calling in so maybe they just quoted me the high retail/MSRP price? It would be great if I could get a package deal on rods and pistons from CP/Carillo.

I ordered the shim just to have. The intent isnt/wasnt to put in the motor with pistons (the 2010 motor), it was for this 08 motor to use while I build the 2010. I was going to try to build both motors at the same time, but I couldnt figure out what to do for pistons and there was pretty much no way I would get them in 6 weeks for our end-of-year trip to Togowotee that I shelved the idea until the off season.

That brings me to my next struggle. I cannot figure out what I want to do about that. Do I run the shim, 2x head gaskets, or a single gasket. This decision is really holding me up big time and I need to figure something out because I could put the 08 motor together if I wanted to test the rust-on-the-valve-seat theory.

For the theory just use some fuel in chamber. Will leak I would think. Then remove valves and clean up try again. Probably could get them to seat with a light tap without even removing.

 

[DigitalFusion]

Man, those pistons look rough. Seems like the CP's are worth the extra $.

To assist in my decision making on the shim/no shim/single vs double head gasket, I took the compression and octane calculator from the sticky in the turbo section and tried to create one for the phazer. Using the 12psi at sea level on pump gas setting from MCX, it seems accurate enough to give some ball parks for octane:

The problem is that there are a very large amount of people who pull the shim out and just run with the stock head gasket at elevation because it becomes too doggy on the low end. There are countless posts of people running 10 psi on 91 at 10K, and @yamahajohnson220 is running 14psi on 100ll. But when I plug that value into the calculator it tells me that it should be closer to 98 octane for 10 and 102 for 14. Im not sure if the calculator is off, or if the OEM knock sensor pulls timing allowing this to work on 91 at 10 and 100ll at 14.

The hp calcs also seem off. MCX claims 140hp at 12psi. There is a dyno result on here showing a phazer making 161hp at 14psi with the shim (110 octane @ 4500 feet) and 161hp at 13psi without the shim and much better bottom end response. The calculator is showing only 134hp for those values

My goal is 96 octane, which if the calculator was correct, would be perfect for 13 psi at 10K with double stacked gaskets.

I have pretty much decided against the shim at this point. I'm just struggling with a single or double HG.

 

[DigitalFusion]

For the theory just use some fuel in chamber. Will leak I would think. Then remove valves and clean up try again. Probably could get them to seat with a light tap without even removing.

I did this. I put some spark plugs in it and flipped the head upside down and poured some water onto the valves, filling it so they were all completely covered. It didnt leak, but it wasnt under pressure. I sprayed some compressed air in each port and did get some tiny bubbles on a few of the valves. I don't have a valve spring compressor so I cant pull the valves to try cleaning the seats or lapping. I might have to buy one.

 

[cannondale27]

I did this. I flipped the head upside down and put some spark plugs in it. It didnt leak, but it wasnt under pressure. I spray some compressed air in each port and did get some tiny bubbles on a few of the valves. I dont have a valve spring compressor so I cant pull the valves to try cleaning the seats or lapping. I might have to buy one.

If you do tap on them make sure the keepers dont come out.

 

[Mtnviper]

DigitalFusion,

Not sure if the Phazer uses a vacuum sensing fuel pressure regulator, but you might check in to a rising rate fuel pressure regulator.
I built a MGB with supercharged V8 and use a fuel management unit https://vortechsuperchargers.com/products/fuel-management-unit?variant=7812902593 which helped bring the duty cycle with in the acceptable range for my ECM.

Edit, If the Phazer uses a return-less fuel supply system, you may have to convert it to a return type fuel system in order to use a rising rate regulator.
I believe that some of the custom turbo kit builders were converting to a return supply system on big boost Nytro kits!

 

[DigitalFusion]

I did do calculations on fuel pressure and looked into rising rate FPRs, but IIRC the stock injectors needed to be like 100psi at 100% duty cycle to even come close, I doubt the stock fuel pump could even supply that? Plus I wasnt even sure how to tune for that with a PCV and the cost of a RR FPR is pretty close to what some new 550cc injectors cost, and 550's at 43psi will be safer and last a long longer than the stockers at 100psi and 100% DC.

 

[cannondale27]

I did do calculations on fuel pressure and looked into rising rate FPRs, but IIRC the stock injectors needed to be like 100psi at 100% duty cycle to even come close, I doubt the stock fuel pump could even supply that? Plus I wasnt even sure how to tune for that with a PCV and the cost of a RR FPR is pretty close to what some new 550cc injectors cost, and 550's at 43psi will be safer and last a long longer than the stockers at 100psi and 100% DC.

Would think Hurricane would advise tuning with Pressure for PCV. PTI. I know Ulmer can convert the PCV to either.

 

[DigitalFusion]

I'm sure its possible and I am sure either of those two would be the ones to talk to about it, but its a moot point for me now. The 550's are already on their way

 

[Mtnviper]

I did do calculations on fuel pressure and looked into rising rate FPRs, but IIRC the stock injectors needed to be like 100psi at 100% duty cycle to even come close, I doubt the stock fuel pump could even supply that? Plus I wasnt even sure how to tune for that with a PCV and the cost of a RR FPR is pretty close to what some new 550cc injectors cost, and 550's at 43psi will be safer and last a long longer than the stockers at 100psi and 100% DC.

Yeah, I hear what your saying and I think that you are correct that the stock pump probably wouldn't be able to handle 100psi!

What can happen with small displacement engines that make big power and that use fairly large injectors, is the pulse width becomes so short at idle and low engine loads the ECU has a difficult time accurately controlling the injector. Typically this will result in poor injector spray patterns at idle/part throttle.

You could still use a rising rate regulator with the 550cc injectors though. Only instead of using it to increase fuel pressure above 43 psi, you would use it to decrease fuel pressure at lower throttle position/engine loads in order to reduce the flow rate of the 550's. This would theoretically improve low speed throttle response and idle. When you get it running, if you find that it's difficult to tune at all RPM and engine loads then using a vacuum/boost sensing pressure regulator might be a good option as it effectively expands the injector operating range!

 

[DigitalFusion]

Yeah, I hear what your saying and I think that you are correct that the stock pump probably wouldn't be able to handle 100psi!

What can happen with small displacement engines that make big power and that use fairly large injectors, is the pulse width becomes so short at idle and low engine loads the ECU has a difficult time accurately controlling the injector. Typically this will result in poor injector spray patterns at idle/part throttle.

You could still use a rising rate regulator with the 550cc injectors though. Only instead of using it to increase fuel pressure above 43 psi, you would use it to decrease fuel pressure at lower throttle position/engine loads in order to reduce the flow rate of the 550's. This would theoretically improve low speed throttle response and idle. When you get it running, if you find that it's difficult to tune at all RPM and engine loads then using a vacuum/boost sensing pressure regulator might be a good option as it effectively expands the injector operating range!

You've piqued my curiosity. I have zero hands on experience with RR FPR's and always ignorantly wrote them off as a band-aid type fix for improperly sized injectors for the application so I have never really looked into them. I had no idea they could go 'backwards' to be honest, I just always ASSumed that they would start with a baseline setting and rise with boost. I suppose it does make sense that if they increase pressure with boost, they would decrease it with vacuum. I'm going to literally and figuratively bookmark this to circle back around to if I find any difficulties getting the 550's to work.

 

[DigitalFusion]

Probably could get them to seat with a light tap without even removing.

BTW - This worked perfectly. I took a 12mm socket over the springs and gave them some loving raps with a hammer. It took two rounds on one of the intake valves (I was being fairly gentle, and it was also the side that was leaking during leakdown test) but this was the answer. Even 125 psi with an air blower aimed right at the base of the valves wouldn't produce an air bubble.

 

[DigitalFusion]

BTW - if anyone is interested, the place I got my power commander for the massive discount still has one left at the clearance price.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dynojet-Re...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

 

[blueironranger]

You've piqued my curiosity. I have zero hands on experience with RR FPR's and always ignorantly wrote them off as a band-aid type fix for improperly sized injectors for the application so I have never really looked into them. I had no idea they could go 'backwards' to be honest, I just always ASSumed that they would start with a baseline setting and rise with boost. I suppose it does make sense that if they increase pressure with boost, they would decrease it with vacuum. I'm going to literally and figuratively bookmark this to circle back around to if I find any difficulties getting the 550's to work.

Every boosted car I've built I ended up pitching the RR FPR's and tuning with larger injectors. I had reliability issues with the stock Vortech ones and found that the fueling curve isn't nearly as precise as larger injectors and a proper tune. A lot easier on the fuel pump too, to stay around 43psi. Do they work, yes. Do I trust them on anything other than a low boost setup, nope.

 

[kallholmen]

This is so interesting to read. The boondocker kit doesn't have extra injectors like MCX? MCX kit has extra injectors even for the low boost kit.

About the discussion about the original pump I do think it's effective enough for your setup (someone told me it's the same pump as Nytro/viper) but I know that it's common to get a aftermarket regulator.


Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

 

[DigitalFusion]

@kallholmen - I was just reading through your build thread for the first time in a very long time (BTW google translate makes it a hilarious read!) and I had a few questions for you. I was going to PM this, but I realized maybe others could benefit from the response, or possibly have some other solutions.

1. What is the material you used to wrap the manifold/header? The white, thick, insulation-like material over the top . I will have heat wrap on my header (again), but I was thinking about adding this stuff over the top of that instead of wrapping every coolant hose and electrical line in reflective heat tape that just seems to degrade over time.

2. What did you use on the intercooler to paint it black and how has it held up? I was going to have mine done in black thermal dispersant coating at my powdercoater but they want $80. I'm still leaning that way but if there is a more economical option I am open to hearing it.