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New Heavy Duty/High performance clutching for My Sidewinder this season

sledding rocks said:
well I just received my Tapp clutch , a piece of art for sure , mine came with the black spring , 140/210 , 1mm roller = 12.5 grams , clicker #3 . ill try it this way first to see how close it will be to run 9000 rpm , im going to first try it on my stock secondary with the 8jp belt , black /orange at 6-3 and black/tan 3-2 , then ill try the xs 825 belt , the nice thing we have many option to tune this clutch , fyi rollers standard r 9.9 grams , 1mm 12.5 grams , 2mm 15.3 grams , might need to order some standard rollers also ,
Click to expand...

If you’re tuned...the + 1’s should be just fine. I have Hurricane SM Tune bundle and the plus ones and she spins fine.
 

WinterWolf said:
Then why would you think you would need the stock rollers with that type of set up??
Click to expand...
I was only referring that we have option if we want to lighten up the arms , to get away from the heavy secondary springs being used , im not a fan of the heavy secondary springs .
 
sledding rocks said:
I was only referring that we have option if we want to lighten up the arms , to get away from the heavy secondary springs being used , im not a fan of the heavy secondary springs .
Click to expand...
One should be careful with the going light secondary strategy. It's true heavy secondary springs will smoke belts, but that's for a reason. The key objective is to be heavy enough in both clutches to avoid slipping the belt, and still have a balance between the clutches that allows the rpms to stay at approx 8900 under full acceleration with no slip.

The secondary first and foremost requires the right helix since this is the only component that is torque sensitive. You can't (successfully) substitute spring to correct for the wrong helix. Why? Because the spring is dumb and doesn't respond to torque loads (especially important in changing conditions such as a snow trail vs say ice). So if you have too light a helix (steep angle) and offset that with a strong spring, it may work ok at one speed under limited conditions, but will be wrong at most others. And a stiff spring in general "fights" the sensitivity the helix is trying to provide. So the goal should be to get the perfect helix with the lightest spring possible. Think about the extremes: if you had no helix at all, and just a spring, you could tune it to work in a drag race on ice, but any feedback from the track in terms of snow resistance would be missing (ie a dumb secondary). And that would make for smoked belts since the primary would be calling for upshift while the secondary would be unable to override with downshift. That extra ratio would result in belt slip from the over load and then boom. Ever notice that most black marks in the secondary are in the middle to upper ranges? That's where the diameter is lower and there's less belt contact area, and hence more tendency for slippage especially under load (snow).

Most flyweight primary's have the opposite problem. They struggle to control slip down low where there is limited belt contact, and the flyweights are tucked under (limited leverage). Not so with the Tapp. It has huge leverage down low due to the geometry of its design. The Tapp provides plenty of squeeze throughout the shift range and is easily tunable everywhere. If you run a boosted turbo with a simple flyweight primary, you'll spend time worrying about primary slip, but with the Tapp you don't.

Guys all of this is my experience but the knowledge is from Olav Aaen's clutch tuning handbook which many of the sages on these pages have read over and over.

Get the helix right and work backwards from there. Fortunately the Tapp doesn't have geometry shortcomings so you can skip the typical flyweight clutch tuning limitations. But you have to get the secondary right, with the right components. The spring can provide a bit of rpm adjustment, but it can't compensate for the wrong helix.

A few last points: 1) drag racing is upshift only typically on lower resistance surface and with limited cumulative belt heat build. What works here won't work on the trail. Drag racing clutch gurus spend energy on steep begining angle helixes and control slip with springs. That strategy won't work for trails. 2) just cause you have the right RPMs doesn't mean you have the right balance. You could have the right RPMs but be slipping (too light a balance). 3) if you overshoot and have too heavy a balance, you'll tend to snap a belt rather than disintigrate a belt.

Sorry for the long post...
 
Great post....with the amount of guys, myself included, looking to go billet, it's always good to hear about your experience with the Tapp. Plus the added Olav references are always a fan favorite...lol
 
Tcat100 said:
One should be careful with the going light secondary strategy. It's true heavy secondary springs will smoke belts, but that's for a reason. The key objective is to be heavy enough in both clutches to avoid slipping the belt, and still have a balance between the clutches that allows the rpms to stay at approx 8900 under full acceleration with no slip.

The secondary first and foremost requires the right helix since this is the only component that is torque sensitive. You can't (successfully) substitute spring to correct for the wrong helix. Why? Because the spring is dumb and doesn't respond to torque loads (especially important in changing conditions such as a snow trail vs say ice). So if you have too light a helix (steep angle) and offset that with a strong spring, it may work ok at one speed under limited conditions, but will be wrong at most others. And a stiff spring in general "fights" the sensitivity the helix is trying to provide. So the goal should be to get the perfect helix with the lightest spring possible. Think about the extremes: if you had no helix at all, and just a spring, you could tune it to work in a drag race on ice, but any feedback from the track in terms of snow resistance would be missing (ie a dumb secondary). And that would make for smoked belts since the primary would be calling for upshift while the secondary would be unable to override with downshift. That extra ratio would result in belt slip from the over load and then boom. Ever notice that most black marks in the secondary are in the middle to upper ranges? That's where the diameter is lower and there's less belt contact area, and hence more tendency for slippage especially under load (snow).

Most flyweight primary's have the opposite problem. They struggle to control slip down low where there is limited belt contact, and the flyweights are tucked under (limited leverage). Not so with the Tapp. It has huge leverage down low due to the geometry of its design. The Tapp provides plenty of squeeze throughout the shift range and is easily tunable everywhere. If you run a boosted turbo with a simple flyweight primary, you'll spend time worrying about primary slip, but with the Tapp you don't.

Guys all of this is my experience but the knowledge is from Olav Aaen's clutch tuning handbook which many of the sages on these pages have read over and over.

Get the helix right and work backwards from there. Fortunately the Tapp doesn't have geometry shortcomings so you can skip the typical flyweight clutch tuning limitations. But you have to get the secondary right, with the right components. The spring can provide a bit of rpm adjustment, but it can't compensate for the wrong helix.

A few last points: 1) drag racing is upshift only typically on lower resistance surface and with limited cumulative belt heat build. What works here won't work on the trail. Drag racing clutch gurus spend energy on steep begining angle helixes and control slip with springs. That strategy won't work for trails. 2) just cause you have the right RPMs doesn't mean you have the right balance. You could have the right RPMs but be slipping (too light a balance). 3) if you overshoot and have too heavy a balance, you'll tend to snap a belt rather than disintigrate a belt.

Sorry for the long post...
Click to expand...
thanks
 
I just installed my Tapp clutch , bolted on nicely , and clearance is good on the back side of the clutch , I'm still using my stock secondary until I get the pro 4 or stm , I set my offset at 59.1 mm , Tapp clutch , black spring , 1mm rollers , arms empty , no washers , clicker 3
stock secondary , 35 helix , v2 , b/o spring set at 6-2 , as mentioned by others using the Tapp , smooth ,quite , grabs hard , I just went for a quick ride on the trail then on the lake , I'm using the 8jp belt , trail manners were good , but need to increase spring to 6-3 for better back shift , I got a chance to open it up on the lake , short blast , 9200 rpm , Tapp clutch was cool , stock secondary was warm , All and all it felt good , need to try the xs belt
 
sledding rocks said:
I just installed my Tapp clutch , bolted on nicely , and clearance is good on the back side of the clutch , I'm still using my stock secondary until I get the pro 4 or stm , I set my offset at 59.1 mm , Tapp clutch , black spring , 1mm rollers , arms empty , no washers , clicker 3
stock secondary , 35 helix , v2 , b/o spring set at 6-2 , as mentioned by others using the Tapp , smooth ,quite , grabs hard , I just went for a quick ride on the trail then on the lake , I'm using the 8jp belt , trail manners were good , but need to increase spring to 6-3 for better back shift , I got a chance to open it up on the lake , short blast , 9200 rpm , Tapp clutch was cool , stock secondary was warm , All and all it felt good , need to try the xs belt
Click to expand...

Sounds good! The TAPP pulls/grabs hard, try the 6-3 wrap it might become even more responsive. And try the clickers on 4 too. I found these two small things made mine significantly more powerful feeling..I really liked the difference. The XS belt is on mine.
 
more info on the Tapp , out on the lakes yesterday 2-3 inches of hard pack snow 130mph on max 17 with multiple long pulls 9300-9400 rpm . need to add more weight to get rpm down , this sled is a animal on top end , stock secondary 35 helix , b/o spring 6-3 ,
also all the guys I'm running with that r using stm secondary r using 46/36 , purple spring , middle hole r working good also . this will be what ill be trying next once I receive my stm clutch , I believe this sled is capable of 140mph on max20 on bare ice conditions ,
 
sledding rocks said:
more info on the Tapp , out on the lakes yesterday 2-3 inches of hard pack snow 130mph on max 17 with multiple long pulls 9300-9400 rpm . need to add more weight to get rpm down , this sled is a animal on top end , stock secondary 35 helix , b/o spring 6-3 ,
also all the guys I'm running with that r using stm secondary r using 46/36 , purple spring , middle hole r working good also . this will be what ill be trying next once I receive my stm clutch , I believe this sled is capable of 140mph on max20 on bare ice conditions ,
Click to expand...

How many studs, and what kind, are you running?
 
sledding rocks said:
studboy lake racers 1.325 , 1 inch track 96 studs ,
Click to expand...

That’s not many studs. Between the one inch lug and the sparse number of studs...that makes for even better top end in your case.

Glad you’re enjoying the sled and the TAPP.
 
sledding rocks said:
more info on the Tapp , out on the lakes yesterday 2-3 inches of hard pack snow 130mph on max 17 with multiple long pulls 9300-9400 rpm . need to add more weight to get rpm down , this sled is a animal on top end , stock secondary 35 helix , b/o spring 6-3 ,
also all the guys I'm running with that r using stm secondary r using 46/36 , purple spring , middle hole r working good also . this will be what ill be trying next once I receive my stm clutch , I believe this sled is capable of 140mph on max20 on bare ice conditions ,
Click to expand...

Are you running stock gearing?
 
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