ROCKERDAN
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Yes everything should be same as OP.....I will edit/update the OP(Original Post) when we have a good shim solution.
If shopping for Carbides, always try to find ones with pads or full length right to front bend(under front stud). I think the 6" Shaper may be a little lacking there. Since these steer quite light compared to the DOO, I tend to want most carbide with this setup on the winder.
Dan
ROCKERDAN
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Yeah this would be the case for most guys doing this mod....So using SW rubbers will be the most popular.
Anyone near Scott bergstrom, can get his pilot shim kit for the 4tec(4 stroke doo) sled. As that shim kit from Scott will be thicker then the 2s shim kit he sells. If I recall its 1/4" thick. He typically sells them very cheap and many times free of charge. And will for sure be free if you buy a set of his carbides.
Dan
ROCKERDAN
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**IMPORTANT**
We have seen one member with shaper bars show heavy wear at the FRONT of his carbides. His sled is a 17. We think the stock soft rubbers may "set in" or "sack" over time. In his case, he added some shims and his setup seems to be better, but he needs more time to watch the wear.
I did my own test(only 550 miles) and with shims added, mine wore too much in BACK of carbides. So in my case the shim was too much, and not needed at all.
We are not sure exactly the differences from his sled to mine, with exception of his is older and may have the rubbers sacked into the pilot pocket more.
My suggestion for new pilot installs, is to follow the above instructions in this post. Trimming the rubbers ect as shown here. Run the setup for a couple hundred miles and be sure to check your carbide wear as much as possible in the first couple hundred miles. If your carbides show even wear, with the skis running nicely parallel to the ground then leave it alone. If you show wear at the front of carbide then add some 1/4 shims(Bergstrom). This may be something that needs to be updated as time/miles goes along. What works on season 1, may need slight shimming by season 2 as the rubbers sack/conform into the pilot pocket.
Please post your results in this thread and over time we will have a good handle on the shimming.
Dan
Shims(Only if you see your carbide wearing at the front heavily)
Over time the soft rubber MAY sag into the pilot pocket, and loses its ability to keep the ski at an acceptable angle. Anyone who has some miles on this setup, should look closely at their carbides, down low, preferably on concrete floor from the side, and see how their carbide is wearing.
I spent some time doing some comparisons to the BRP rubbers. BRP rubbers are quite stiff, almost feel more like hard plastic in comparison to the soft rubber of the winder. BRP rubbers can be used here, but do take some work to make them fit, and I felt I would work with the winder rubbers/shims as most guys here will be doing same.
Shims at 1/4" thick, to 3/8" thick. Im not certain what will be best long term as it will take some time to really find this out. Reason is, the soft rubbers really set in over time, and when the shims are initially installed, they seem like the shims are too thick, but I know over time the soft rubbers and shims will all "set in". 1/4" may work.... I will test with 3/8'' thick as I had some of that material around. You want to use hard plastic material(not soft rubber) like an old slider.
Two ways to do the shimming.
1- Call Scott Bergstrom, as he makes shim kits for pilots. Im fairly certain his 4stroke DOO shim kit is 1/4" thick and would be perfect. Just ask him how thick his "flat shim" is for the 4tec.(very cheap or free) You only will use the flat shims from Scott's kit. The wedges are only used for BRP rubbers.
OR
2- Make up your own shims as I did, very easy. I used old slider cutoff. It was 3/8" thick so I went with it. But an old slider that is 1/4" thick is good, or anywhere in between.
SHIM SIZE:
2'' X 7/8" X 1/4'' to 3/8" thickness
Notice how badly the stock soft rubbers fall into the deep center pocket of the pilot, and take the pocket shape, This is only after 2 months or so of sitting(no miles).
Shims installed, this should keep the rubber from pushing down into pocket.
Get a good look from the side, you want a slight upward tilt at front of carbide.
We have seen one member with shaper bars show heavy wear at the FRONT of his carbides. His sled is a 17. We think the stock soft rubbers may "set in" or "sack" over time. In his case, he added some shims and his setup seems to be better, but he needs more time to watch the wear.
I did my own test(only 550 miles) and with shims added, mine wore too much in BACK of carbides. So in my case the shim was too much, and not needed at all.
We are not sure exactly the differences from his sled to mine, with exception of his is older and may have the rubbers sacked into the pilot pocket more.
My suggestion for new pilot installs, is to follow the above instructions in this post. Trimming the rubbers ect as shown here. Run the setup for a couple hundred miles and be sure to check your carbide wear as much as possible in the first couple hundred miles. If your carbides show even wear, with the skis running nicely parallel to the ground then leave it alone. If you show wear at the front of carbide then add some 1/4 shims(Bergstrom). This may be something that needs to be updated as time/miles goes along. What works on season 1, may need slight shimming by season 2 as the rubbers sack/conform into the pilot pocket.
Please post your results in this thread and over time we will have a good handle on the shimming.
Dan
Shims(Only if you see your carbide wearing at the front heavily)
Over time the soft rubber MAY sag into the pilot pocket, and loses its ability to keep the ski at an acceptable angle. Anyone who has some miles on this setup, should look closely at their carbides, down low, preferably on concrete floor from the side, and see how their carbide is wearing.
I spent some time doing some comparisons to the BRP rubbers. BRP rubbers are quite stiff, almost feel more like hard plastic in comparison to the soft rubber of the winder. BRP rubbers can be used here, but do take some work to make them fit, and I felt I would work with the winder rubbers/shims as most guys here will be doing same.
Shims at 1/4" thick, to 3/8" thick. Im not certain what will be best long term as it will take some time to really find this out. Reason is, the soft rubbers really set in over time, and when the shims are initially installed, they seem like the shims are too thick, but I know over time the soft rubbers and shims will all "set in". 1/4" may work.... I will test with 3/8'' thick as I had some of that material around. You want to use hard plastic material(not soft rubber) like an old slider.
Two ways to do the shimming.
1- Call Scott Bergstrom, as he makes shim kits for pilots. Im fairly certain his 4stroke DOO shim kit is 1/4" thick and would be perfect. Just ask him how thick his "flat shim" is for the 4tec.(very cheap or free) You only will use the flat shims from Scott's kit. The wedges are only used for BRP rubbers.
OR
2- Make up your own shims as I did, very easy. I used old slider cutoff. It was 3/8" thick so I went with it. But an old slider that is 1/4" thick is good, or anywhere in between.
SHIM SIZE:
2'' X 7/8" X 1/4'' to 3/8" thickness
Notice how badly the stock soft rubbers fall into the deep center pocket of the pilot, and take the pocket shape, This is only after 2 months or so of sitting(no miles).
Shims installed, this should keep the rubber from pushing down into pocket.
Get a good look from the side, you want a slight upward tilt at front of carbide.
Last edited:
ROCKERDAN
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I updated the original post on shimming and cutting the rubbers, so anyone who is just starting fresh with pilots on a winder, can follow along from the first post in this thread.
Dan
Dan
YukonMP
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How incredibly thorough and generous with your time, I don't have a Sidewinder but I learn so much about what to watch out for and how to solve/head off problems from threads like this. Thanks.
I would say this might also benefit those running other types of skis ( I currently have cat procross on ) and did something like this ...but not as well done..
As always...when it comes to this stuff...you are the best..
On behalf of the ski depraved sidewinder crew, Thanks Dan
As always...when it comes to this stuff...you are the best..
On behalf of the ski depraved sidewinder crew, Thanks Dan
ROCKERDAN
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I really wished I could have known how the soft rubbers would wear before. Glad Brent brought this up so we can get this right.
I know my dealer runs BRP rubbers in his pilots, and a member here now owns that sled, so it it will be nice to have Ron give some feedback on those rubbers too.
Happy holidays gang
Dan
I know my dealer runs BRP rubbers in his pilots, and a member here now owns that sled, so it it will be nice to have Ron give some feedback on those rubbers too.
Happy holidays gang
Dan
aquaticlaker
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Dan
Your right on, on this issue as I rode my sled for 225 mile and noticed the the steering became harder and the darting started to show up when letting off the gas on hard pack. I came up with the same program as you did. I had some Bergstrom shims laying around to try. I had both 1/4 and 3/8 but, went with 1/4 shim to start. I plan on trying this setup Thursday thru Sunday. Can provide feedback later
Mike
Last edited:
ROCKERDAN
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Great work Mike....please keep me posted on your results, the more feedback on shim thickness the better. I really think these soft rubbers will wear in over time and so a thicker then normal shim is needed. BRP rubbers are so firm/rigid the 1/8"(2s) and 1/4"(4s) shims from Scott always do well, and look pretty much same over many miles and yrs. We may find with these soft rubbers ours wont.
So we gotta watch and post results.
I ran mine today and it seems fine on hardpack road and powder, I know backing up on pavement/lot ect can be tough when shimmed to much, so I will watch for that with my 3/8 thick.
Dan
The cat Rubbers dont do this. I did not mod mine at all when putting 6.9 Pilots on and have a good 8000mi on them.
Here
Napaguy62
Newbie
Did you also shim the AC rubbers?
Doc Harley
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Cannondale, do you have the part #'s? I will get a set on order.
aquaticlaker
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Looks like your rubber is sitting on the top,of the cross,ribs of the pocket! That would lower that back end of the ski and the rubber would be supported. In other words the front of the rubber is in the pocket correct but the back is not quite in the pocket hence no need to shim. IMO
Mike
Yes they are real thick in back.Bugger to get ski on. Nice and tight.
