Pilot 6.9 ski's installed

[ROCKERDAN]

I can’t upload the photo from my iPhone because it gives me an error saying it’s too big. I have to take a screen shot of it. That’s the only way it works! I see what you mean about having no carbide close to the bend. I thought 6” shaper and 4” doo outer was common.

Yeah I take very close up pics to begin with, then I resize the DPI, but not the overal size, as the site does not care as long as the overall MB are not too much.

 

[PowderFalcon]

I just went back over your instructions on page 1 and my rubbers looks exactly like yours in the same orientation.
So the only difference is the length of carbide. 6” to 7.5”.
Do you really think that will make the carbide wear so drastically different?

 

[XP123]

I love the BRP extreme most, with all those pads up front, but they only come in 5" now, but still have the 3 pads in front, still love those for 60 bucks or so only.

I have not seen any of mine wear up front due to shimming, so I have not had any issues but these ones are badly worn as shown in his pics.

Dan

I agree I can't remember seeing carbides wear that bad up front in years. I think I had a Cat do that but that was after 6000 miles.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

I just went back over your instructions on page 1 and my rubbers looks exactly like yours in the same orientation.
So the only difference is the length of carbide. 6” to 7.5”.
Do you really think that will make the carbide wear so drastically different?

As I said this is a work in progress and many guys have lesser miles on this setup, or ride better conditions, or dont wait that long to swap to new carbides..lol

Only way to do this right is to look at the ski, how it sits on concrete...I do this most every day after each ride when get home, only takes a second with a light, get down and look at it from side. As soon as it starts wearing more to front, you need to add shim right NOW, not waiting.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

I think a full length carbide is better as well. Not sure I would recommend those 6 shapers if they have NOTHING infront of the main pieces, which it does not look like the do in your pics.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

I will be watching my setup closely now....I have OLD 5" extreme BRP on mine now for early season riding, as I dont want to wear my new ones on roads early season. I will see how they wear as they are rather worn from all last season being on my doo.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Older video of mine on BRP pilot carbide discussion...BRP even puts pads on their cheapest, cause they know how bad the pilot wears out carbide in front.

Older video subject pertains to the 1200 doo.

 

[XP123]

I will be watching my setup closely now....I have OLD 5" extreme BRP on mine now for early season riding, as I dont want to wear my new ones on roads early season. I will see how they wear as they are rather worn from all last season being on my doo.

Dan

I like the 5" extreme for the 1/2 host bar and the two carbide wear pads up front. They are a real bargain for sure.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

I just went back over your instructions on page 1 and my rubbers looks exactly like yours in the same orientation.
So the only difference is the length of carbide. 6” to 7.5”.
Do you really think that will make the carbide wear so drastically different?

Was thinking about this more overnight....

Ultimately the best install would be to use the Pilot rubbers. And when I initially did mine way back in 2012 on my cat, I used the cat rubbers as the doo rubbers were far too thick, and would have needed much more modding to fit. They worked fine so I sorta duplicated the process here for the winder, although the rubbers now seem abit softer.

Seeing your carbides really is quite extreme. And I would have made drastic changes to my rubbers/shimming long before this kind of wear occured. You guys need to really watch your carbide wear as miles get piled up, ESPECIALLY road running alot.

What I have never liked is how the pilot ski has this odd angled pocket that is shallower on left/right outsides and deeper in center rear. If you look closely at this setup once installed, you can see the soft winder rubber getting pressed down into that deep center rear. The DOO rubber wont do that, as it has the matching bottom angles to the pilot ski, so it will remain flat on top and not fall down into this deep area over time with all that weight on it.

So ultimately a pilot rubber could be used, but needs alot of trimming/cutting to make them fit.....But in your case might be well worth doing. Or at the very least, if you must run those 6" shapers without any pads near front bend, You at least should try to modify your current rubbers more.

Now that they are worn in, were the skis QUITE EASY to install this time round? Meaning did you have to fight the rubbers with a block of wood and hammer on bolt to install the skis like the first time? My guess is you were able to install them this time much easier, as your rubbers likely have "sacked out" for lack of a better term. They have taken the shape of that pilot perch/seat and have lost their ability to put pressure on the back side, propping up the nose of ski tip at the correct angle.

If you dont have any other rubbers from a pilot to mod and work with....you might at the very least consider removing MORE material from the current rubbers IN FRONT of the ski bolt. This will take away more pressure in front letting the front ride higher off surface of trail. They will also install easier. But ultimately I think we need to fill in the center rear with more shim, or mod the BRP rubber from the get go.

The reason I did not remove any more material in front to begin with is that now you will be deeping into the rubber, and not just cutting out those two thin strips...you must now go into the entire width of th rubber deeper then those side strips.

Now this leads to the other thing I mentioned. In the back of the pilot there is a deep pocket in center, and if you look at the modded rubbers, there is nothing in center, so this double the area where the winder rubber can fall down into that hole in center of pilot pocket. What I might try is to shim that area between the two outer strips, as the weight is only being held up by those two outer strips. And there seems to need more shim in center down low.

For anyone doing this, you might try using the small cuttoff strips, and cutting one in length to fit sideways in rear to shim. A hard plastic shim would be better, like Scott Bergstrom sells. They fit into the pocket floor of the pilot at rear bottom about 3/16 thick.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Here is how stock pilot bottom of rubber looks...notice the angles and deeper section center to follow the pocket of pilot ski, much different then bottom of our winder rubber.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Here is an older image of mine on my DOO....shows the Scott Bergstrom shims. The one I think we need is the flat shim rear plastic piece sitting flat on bottom rear of pilot pocket, it even has a small cutout for that knub in ski floor.

Scott also has the angled plugs that are used with pilot rubbers(on left) that go up into the hollow rubbers at rear, this works well overall.

As you can now see, the BRP rubber would be the best way to go, but would need modding to the topside(not bottom) to make them fit to the winder spindle.

I would think one flat shim like Scott sells(he even makes thicker ones for 4tec-approx 1/4") along with the same exact winder modded rubber on page one of this thread would be the perfect ticket. It will stop the center of rear winder rubber from falling down into the pocket, but likely make for an ever MORE difficult install....Grrrr

If you arent near Scott, just make some up similar to pic below 1/4" thick or so. Plastic material is better then rubber, cut them out of old slider material works too, done that many times. You can even use a small screw to screw the plastic shim to bottom of rubber so it cannot move.

Dan

 

[ROCKERDAN]

This is an older video when I was working on 16 4tec doo....So some of this does not pertain to the winder but I do give a good closeup of the Scott Bergstrom shims for Pilots, and how the DOO rubber looks ect....You can see how much better it would be to run DOO rubbers with the proper seat into the pocket, but that would take much more work on top of the rubber for fitment to the winder spindle bottom foot. Likely a band saw could be used to cut the rubber tops perfectly as needed.

Good to watch.

 

[**sj**]

Was thinking about this more overnight....

Ultimately the best install would be to use the Pilot rubbers. And when I initially did mine way back in 2012 on my cat, I used the cat rubbers as the doo rubbers were far too thick, and would have needed much more modding to fit. They worked fine so I sorta duplicated the process here for the winder, although the rubbers now seem abit softer.

Seeing your carbides really is quite extreme. And I would have made drastic changes to my rubbers/shimming long before this kind of wear occured. You guys need to really watch your carbide wear as miles get piled up, ESPECIALLY road running alot.

What I have never liked is how the pilot ski has this odd angled pocket that is shallower on left/right outsides and deeper in center rear. If you look closely at this setup once installed, you can see the soft winder rubber getting pressed down into that deep center rear. The DOO rubber wont do that, as it has the matching bottom angles to the pilot ski, so it will remain flat on top and not fall down into this deep area over time with all that weight on it.

So ultimately a pilot rubber could be used, but needs alot of trimming/cutting to make them fit.....But in your case might be well worth doing. Or at the very least, if you must run those 6" shapers without any pads near front bend, You at least should try to modify your current rubbers more.

Now that they are worn in, were the skis QUITE EASY to install this time round? Meaning did you have to fight the rubbers with a block of wood and hammer on bolt to install the skis like the first time? My guess is you were able to install them this time much easier, as your rubbers likely have "sacked out" for lack of a better term. They have taken the shape of that pilot perch/seat and have lost their ability to put pressure on the back side, propping up the nose of ski tip at the correct angle.

If you dont have any other rubbers from a pilot to mod and work with....you might at the very least consider removing MORE material from the current rubbers IN FRONT of the ski bolt. This will take away more pressure in front letting the front ride higher off surface of trail. They will also install easier. But ultimately I think we need to fill in the center rear with more shim, or mod the BRP rubber from the get go.

The reason I did not remove any more material in front to begin with is that now you will be deeping into the rubber, and not just cutting out those two thin strips...you must now go into the entire width of th rubber deeper then those side strips.

Now this leads to the other thing I mentioned. In the back of the pilot there is a deep pocket in center, and if you look at the modded rubbers, there is nothing in center, so this double the area where the winder rubber can fall down into that hole in center of pilot pocket. What I might try is to shim that area between the two outer strips, as the weight is only being held up by those two outer strips. And there seems to need more shim in center down low.

For anyone doing this, you might try using the small cuttoff strips, and cutting one in length to fit sideways in rear to shim. A hard plastic shim would be better, like Scott Bergstrom sells. They fit into the pocket floor of the pilot at rear bottom about 3/16 thick.

Dan
View attachment 134614

I haven't installed these yet...since I have the cat skis (shimmed) ...and the conditions arent optimal...Ill run them for now....but...what you are showing I kinda thought when I modded my other set of ski rubbers...so I kept the cut off pieces to screw between the raised pads at the rear...since there isnt much pad area left...I think that might be better (stronger and better rear bias) ...good call and thanks again dan

alternatively....I used a thin piece of limiter strap on my other rubber grommets one could use something like that or even better 1/8'-3/16' piece of plastic with holes and ss screws

 

[PowderFalcon]

This is an older video when I was working on 16 4tec doo....So some of this does not pertain to the winder but I do give a good closeup of the Scott Bergstrom shims for Pilots, and how the DOO rubber looks ect....You can see how much better it would be to run DOO rubbers with the proper seat into the pocket, but that would take much more work on top of the rubber for fitment to the winder spindle bottom foot. Likely a band saw could be used to cut the rubber tops perfectly as needed.

Good to watch.

The rubber is definitely sacked out like you figured it would be. Since I have some space now, I might add a 1/4 shim like you suggested and also duplicate the flat piece in the bottom. See if that helps.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

The rubber is definitely sacked out like you figured it would be. Since I have some space now, I might add a 1/4 shim like you suggested and also duplicate the flat piece in the bottom. See if that helps.

Very good...I believe this is something we should all do ultimately. I will pop mine off and try to take more pics when I do the shim in rear center. Possibly I will mess with DOO rubbers to see if they are not too much work without a band saw or similar to cut them to match.

Dan