Relax! Yamaha is not lying Down.

[whitedust1]

It doesn't needs to go 10000 miles.
The other brand's don't, yet the owners of those are falling all over themselves to buy another one or a new engine at least.

If Yamaha is going to enter the 2 smoke market the engine should kick butt head and shoulders above all other 2s with reliability or totally me too product which won’t turn the market on its ear. Yamaha is a very well respected engine maker but it’s been a long time since they were in the 2s snowmobile engine market like what 17 years? The 2s market won’t just roll over doesn’t work that way.

 

[STAIN]

I think i'd buy a Yamaha made 850 smoker.

ONLY if it had 3 cylinders.
I have ridden the other 850's, after riding a Winder the power of the 850 was a let down

 

[biffdotorg]

Bottom line build a 850cc 2 stroke with 170 hp that doesn't blow up and can realistically achieve 10,000 miles.

Let's be realistic here. No snowmobile company today can take the Maytag route to success. The market is not big enough to build 10,000 mile bulletproof sleds. As much as we want them as a consumer, it's not good business. They would not have return customers if the average guy could get that mileage. And there are not enough new ways to innovate these things to get people to trade off a low mileage running sled it seems.

Even though they won't say it outloud, the OEM's are designing a sled that will last long enough to get through the warranty period and provide enough miles of smiles to keep the owner from being disappointed when it needs a top end rebuild. I know 2-stroke buyers that purchase with the components to do that top end rebuild, as they get a discount with purchase.

And even though we put on those kinds of miles, the average owner may put on 1000-1500/season tops. So if they get three seasons for a grand total of 4500, they are ready for the next new thing. And that is still above average miles. What used to make us very brand loyal was high mileage and good resale value. And Ski-doo, polaris and AC have figured out how to make them last just long enough for the owner to ride it 2-3 seasons and get it sold while running and feel like they had a solid sled.

 

[whitedust1]

Let's be realistic here. No snowmobile company today can take the Maytag route to success. The market is not big enough to build 10,000 mile bulletproof sleds. As much as we want them as a consumer, it's not good business. They would not have return customers if the average guy could get that mileage. And there are not enough new ways to innovate these things to get people to trade off a low mileage running sled it seems.

Even though they won't say it outloud, the OEM's are designing a sled that will last long enough to get through the warranty period and provide enough miles of smiles to keep the owner from being disappointed when it needs a top end rebuild. I know 2-stroke buyers that purchase with the components to do that top end rebuild, as they get a discount with purchase.

And even though we put on those kinds of miles, the average owner may put on 1000-1500/season tops. So if they get three seasons for a grand total of 4500, they are ready for the next new thing. And that is still above average miles. What used to make us very brand loyal was high mileage and good resale value. And Ski-doo, polaris and AC have figured out how to make them last just long enough for the owner to ride it 2-3 seasons and get it sold while running and feel like they had a solid sled.

Ok and I think what you are saying, correct me if I’m miss understanding your post that there is the disposable 2s sled market and I agree nature of the beast even if the goal is 10,000 miles of engine life in a 4 year warranty period.

BUT how does the 4s engine and sled fit in that OEM scenario same sled but 4s engine? Is this a different life expectancy both 4s engine and sled?

If it is a different life expectancy for 4s then Yamaha is right on with their high reliability of their Japanese built 4s sleds.

Then what does the OEM do vastly increase the price of 4s sleds as the sleds will last much longer and always sell less units because the are not disposable??

I’m not saying you’re wrong but increased 4s life expectations does present some interesting design , marketing and price questions to maximize profits.

Following this line of thinking I think I would pay more for a robust 4s engine and a beefed up longer life chassis because my ROI would be so much more attractive than a 2s disposable sled.

Interesting marketing and design question. What are others thoughts?

 

[biffdotorg]

Whitedust, I agree with what you are saying 100%, and that is what sold us on Yamaha back in the early 2000's when they lead with them, and then later switched to nearly 100% 4-stroke. Reliability. And the 2 stroke guys that swear their sleds are just as reliable probably never put on the miles to prove that point. That market exist for guys like you and me, but it is a very small portion of the market, and probably why if and when Yamaha does release their own again, it will be a boutique sled that is pre-order only. The market will just not support mass production.

The issue that Yamaha found out is, you can't charge enough of a premium to make up for the lack of repeat purchase. That is one of the biggest reasons it has killed their market share. The very reason I have had the same Apex for as long as I have. It changed very minimally, and it ran as good or better than a new one on the show floor.

That's why I was saying the OEM's could not follow the way of Maytag. Remember the old ads of the Maytag repair man being the loneliest guy on the planet. Almost all products have to have a disposable life cycle of some sort. To some, it's the length of the warranty, to others its roughly double the length etc. I'm just throwing those out there, but shooting for a mileage that most riders never attain is tough to prove anymore.

Electrolux back in 1980 made a vacuum cleaner that they warrantied until the year 2000. I remember this ad as a kid. 20 years, and in that time, the thing looked like an antique, and new features came out that made folks want a new one even if it still sucked (in a good way) That's one example. And then there are TV's. I would love for my 1080p LCD to die, so that I had reason to replace it. As it has no value used. And I can't just throw it away.

Sleds have to last long enough to make the buyer feel like they got their money's worth. But not last longer than the original buyer would ever appreciate. This is just my businessmans opinion. As I will keep humping my Apex well past 10,000 miles again next year if it lets me. But I'm not the average buyer. That gained nothing for Yamaha's bottom line. As the SkiDoo owner that got 4500 miles out of his Etec in three years feels his machine is just as reliable. As he trades it off and it grenades for the next owner.

It's just an opinion, and i don't even like it in my eyes, as I like longevity. Yamaha is better off sticking with a bulletproof engine, that everyone in the business knows they can build and be an engine supplier. As the market as spoken with their dollars. They don't want to buy a 700lb bulletproof chassis anymore. They will give up reliability for lighter weight and design. Market share doesn't lie at this point.

 

[1nc 2000]

If Yamaha is asking questions about what type of sleds sell, they are really out of touch with snowmobiling.
They need a very aggressive marketing department to go after the other manufacturers and machines to back it up.

 

[whitedust1]

Whitedust, I agree with what you are saying 100%, and that is what sold us on Yamaha back in the early 2000's when they lead with them, and then later switched to nearly 100% 4-stroke. Reliability. And the 2 stroke guys that swear their sleds are just as reliable probably never put on the miles to prove that point. That market exist for guys like you and me, but it is a very small portion of the market, and probably why if and when Yamaha does release their own again, it will be a boutique sled that is pre-order only. The market will just not support mass production.

The issue that Yamaha found out is, you can't charge enough of a premium to make up for the lack of repeat purchase. That is one of the biggest reasons it has killed their market share. The very reason I have had the same Apex for as long as I have. It changed very minimally, and it ran as good or better than a new one on the show floor.

That's why I was saying the OEM's could not follow the way of Maytag. Remember the old ads of the Maytag repair man being the loneliest guy on the planet. Almost all products have to have a disposable life cycle of some sort. To some, it's the length of the warranty, to others its roughly double the length etc. I'm just throwing those out there, but shooting for a mileage that most riders never attain is tough to prove anymore.

Electrolux back in 1980 made a vacuum cleaner that they warrantied until the year 2000. I remember this ad as a kid. 20 years, and in that time, the thing looked like an antique, and new features came out that made folks want a new one even if it still sucked (in a good way) That's one example. And then there are TV's. I would love for my 1080p LCD to die, so that I had reason to replace it. As it has no value used. And I can't just throw it away.

Sleds have to last long enough to make the buyer feel like they got their money's worth. But not last longer than the original buyer would ever appreciate. This is just my businessmans opinion. As I will keep humping my Apex well past 10,000 miles again next year if it lets me. But I'm not the average buyer. That gained nothing for Yamaha's bottom line. As the SkiDoo owner that got 4500 miles out of his Etec in three years feels his machine is just as reliable. As he trades it off and it grenades for the next owner.

It's just an opinion, and i don't even like it in my eyes, as I like longevity. Yamaha is better off sticking with a bulletproof engine, that everyone in the business knows they can build and be an engine supplier. As the market as spoken with their dollars. They don't want to buy a 700lb bulletproof chassis anymore. They will give up reliability for lighter weight and design. Market share doesn't lie at this point.

No market share tells us a lot! Imo Skidoo dragged their feet releasing the 150hp 4s snowmobile and I thought doo leadership decided it was best to flood the market with their 2s 850 be first to market move 800 owners to the 850 no matter what brand 800 the buyer owned. For me I could care less about an 850 2s just not the right engine for a big mile rider. Since I’m a new member of dootalk I’m noticing that many members are switching from the 850 to the 900t. They think the 900t is sporty enough and light enough to take the weight penalty of the 900t over the less reliable 850. Skidoo does have the gen4 wide chassis for 4s sleds so it will be interesting to see how the doo 4s lineup life expectancy holds up to their 850 line up and how much of a market shift happens for trail riding . As far as Yamaha new products I agree it will probably be a boutique limited order 4s sled at a premium price. Will it be a significant market mover is the question and delayed time to market is a hinderance to success as well. Every year that goes by without a new Yamaha or cat chassis just causes more faithful to buy something else other than Yamaha. I sure hope new Yamaha product is coming way way overdue.

 

[74Nitro]

Let's be realistic here. No snowmobile company today can take the Maytag route to success. The market is not big enough to build 10,000 mile bulletproof sleds. As much as we want them as a consumer, it's not good business. They would not have return customers if the average guy could get that mileage. And there are not enough new ways to innovate these things to get people to trade off a low mileage running sled it seems.

Even though they won't say it outloud, the OEM's are designing a sled that will last long enough to get through the warranty period and provide enough miles of smiles to keep the owner from being disappointed when it needs a top end rebuild. I know 2-stroke buyers that purchase with the components to do that top end rebuild, as they get a discount with purchase.

And even though we put on those kinds of miles, the average owner may put on 1000-1500/season tops. So if they get three seasons for a grand total of 4500, they are ready for the next new thing. And that is still above average miles. What used to make us very brand loyal was high mileage and good resale value. And Ski-doo, polaris and AC have figured out how to make them last just long enough for the owner to ride it 2-3 seasons and get it sold while running and feel like they had a solid sled.

Correct, it's business and that's how they make money!

 

[MarkAttack]

Sure a heavier sled is more durable but the weight is the trade off you have top decide on.. My Buddy quit High School at age 16 and moved to IA to work at Maytag..

A good friend of mine ran her 3rd Generation small Town MayTag Appliance Dealership until last Summer. It was just not feasible to compete against Lowes and Menards anymore.. She gave great service pick up deliveries and in home repairs..
Now days just throw it away and buy a new one.. My 25 year old Maytag Washing machine gear box gave up .. They told me to throw it away .. I bought a Crowsly ..

The Maytag Factory was for sale for $1.00 about 4 years ago .. US Representative from MI Fred Upton's Family owns Whirlpool they bought Maytag and gutted them. After a few years shut them down in IA.. Not sure if they still make them in MX or not ..

 

[MarkAttack]

I just heard that the Tsunami wiped out the Yamaha Snowmobile Factory .. I think it worked out good for both Yamaha and Arctic Cat to have their joint effort.. It's good to have the Yamaha more American made..
Yes the 4 stroke may last much longer but it's not very hard to rebuild a two stroke ..

 

[whitedust1]

I just heard that the Tsunami wiped out the Yamaha Snowmobile Factory .. I think it worked out good for both Yamaha and Arctic Cat to have their joint effort.. It's good to have the Yamaha more American made..
Yes the 4 stroke may last much longer but it's not very hard to rebuild a two stroke ..

Yeah but for me it was the inconvenience of the 2s trail breakdown the hassle to get the sled to dealer or garage, tear down to see what let go, order parts reassemble and shake out time. Plus it always happens when I would inconvenience the whole group on a trip and if not me it was someone else. I swore there had to be a better mouse trap and bought my first Apex in 2007 and with in 2 years all my buds where on 4s Yamahas. 4s undoubtedly have a longer life than 2s and I think Yamaha made a good decision to feature a 4s lineup but yes you still needs 2s sleds to please the disposable market. Imo the largest problem Yamaha has either 2s or 4s is currently to have a reasonably light new chassis that is in the ballpark weight wise that handles and rides ultra well. That should not be tuff at all with all Yamaha has learned thru their partnership with AC. Yamaha just needs to spend money and tool up with a commitment to succeed and quit screwing around just to hang on for a few bucks and minimal market share.

 

[MarkAttack]

There was over 100 Snowmobile manufacturers at one time and I think over 200 automobile Manufactures.. You could buy a Model T for $475.00 but some really Premium cars were $30,000 there were lots of Millionaires before the income Tax and before the Federal Reserve but that was before cars were popular..

I don't know why , but I think a 800 CC Yamaha 2 stroke Triple would be cool .. Most of the Brands have fewer models than they used to offer.. Many people re still riding sleds 10-20 -30 -40 years old .. It appears classic sled racing is very popular..

Racing still seems to push the envelope forward..

 

[MarkAttack]

The YamiCat Marriage explained ..

 

[VX1R]

The YamiCat Marriage explained ..

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist.....

 

[biffdotorg]

No market share tells us a lot! Imo Skidoo dragged their feet releasing the 150hp 4s snowmobile and I thought doo leadership decided it was best to flood the market with their 2s 850 be first to market move 800 owners to the 850 no matter what brand 800 the buyer owned. For me I could care less about an 850 2s just not the right engine for a big mile rider. Since I’m a new member of dootalk I’m noticing that many members are switching from the 850 to the 900t.

Did you happen to notice the pricing of the spring order 900T over the past two seasons? For Spring order 2019 the 900T in every configuration was limited to Renegades and were priced higher than their flagship 850 Etec version! Ski-Doo knows that they have plenty of loyal owners that want a mid-performance 4-stroke, and they are going to use the Boutique method to only produce them in a limited number of configurations and a premium price. For all of the reason above that Yamaha is doing it for the entire lineup.

Now once they have their loyal owners in, they may open the flood gates to other configurations. I had not looked at the 2020 spring orders to see if they offer the 900t in MXZ etc, but they may milk it one more season for the fence sitters that were waiting to skip first year blues on a new model. They will convert those fence sitters this season, and then really concentrate on the cross-brand marketing. They will really hammer on gaining market share from the 4-stroke market that AC/Yamaha has. Keep in mind, it's small, but still market share. And all of this is happening while their Etec market stays strong.

The only thing that would throw a wrench into that marketing plan would be if Polaris were to release a 4-stroke sled. But we know that won't happen. Polaris is the king of knowing their market and the disposable nature of these toys. I could make jokes about them lighting on fire, but that would be too easy. They have figured out how to get great loyalty with the longevity of each of their powersports lines. But lets not bring up their motorcycle division, as that is a true #*$&@ show. They have no clue what they are doing there. They have re-branded that industry so many times, their customers don't know what logo to wear.