Relax! Yamaha is not lying Down.

[Wannaviper]

After riding Yamaha Deltabox sleds, I wanted a 4s Yamaha engine in a platform that gave decent handling and did not beat me to death at the end of the day when the trails got rough. In 2014 I got it, and I love it. I love my Vipers, and I love my Sidewinder even more. I want 4s reliability, and yes, I want a sled that will go 10,000 miles and still be worth something. I don't want a "disposable" engine as part of routine maintenance, and I don't want to have to worry that my sled will blow up, or catch fire, or die in any other fashion, when I am half way through a 1,000 mile saddlebag trip in Quebec.

Maybe the guys who yearn for Yamaha 2s engines believe that because they are Yamahas, they will have 4s reliability and longevity. If Yamaha decides to build them again, I surely hope that is the case because sleds are just too expensive to be disposable. My local dealer will not even take a 2s sled in trade if it is more than XX years old, or if it has more than XX miles on it. Why, because he stands behind the sleds he sells, and he can't afford to take that risk with 2s engines. On the other hand, he had a pair of 2017 Sidewinders come in as trades, a few miles short of 10,000. He took them in trade without hesitation, and they were re-sold in no time. (I know because I bought one of them.) If the original owners of those Sidewinders had bought 2s, what would they have had after 2 years and 10,000 miles? Maybe they could have sold them privately and gotten some money back, but the dealer would not have taken them in trade, too many miles. Do the math. Which would you rather do, pay $11-12,000 for a 2s Polaris, maybe spend a few hundred (or more) to rebuild the engine at 5-6,000 miles, and have it worthless after 10,000 miles, or pay $16,000 for a 4s that is still worth more than 50% of its original purchase price after that same 2 year/10,000 mile period?

 

[whitedust1]

Did you happen to notice the pricing of the spring order 900T over the past two seasons? For Spring order 2019 the 900T in every configuration was limited to Renegades and were priced higher than their flagship 850 Etec version! Ski-Doo knows that they have plenty of loyal owners that want a mid-performance 4-stroke, and they are going to use the Boutique method to only produce them in a limited number of configurations and a premium price. For all of the reason above that Yamaha is doing it for the entire lineup.

Now once they have their loyal owners in, they may open the flood gates to other configurations. I had not looked at the 2020 spring orders to see if they offer the 900t in MXZ etc, but they may milk it one more season for the fence sitters that were waiting to skip first year blues on a new model. They will convert those fence sitters this season, and then really concentrate on the cross-brand marketing. They will really hammer on gaining market share from the 4-stroke market that AC/Yamaha has. Keep in mind, it's small, but still market share. And all of this is happening while their Etec market stays strong.

The only thing that would throw a wrench into that marketing plan would be if Polaris were to release a 4-stroke sled. But we know that won't happen. Polaris is the king of knowing their market and the disposable nature of these toys. I could make jokes about them lighting on fire, but that would be too easy. They have figured out how to get great loyalty with the longevity of each of their powersports lines. But lets not bring up their motorcycle division, as that is a true #*$&@ show. They have no clue what they are doing there. They have re-branded that industry so many times, their customers don't know what logo to wear.

No I didn’t bother with pricing for the doo 850 in March I knew there were deals on non currents but 2s not for me. I found good discounts on the 2019 Enduro 900t and my dealer choice had color and accessories good to go and it was important to me to get riding my new sled in epic northern WI snow. It was easy for me coming off an Apex xtx no used cherries in my area ,poo doesn’t have a 4s so my comparo was the Sidewinder at 180 hp and heavier by 30 to 60 lbs than the Enduro 900t. I wanted to buy a Yamaha but nothing available in the 150 pony market niche. I knew how the SW handled so my test riding was concentrated on different shocked Renegades. Obviously I was impressed with the Enduro 900t and bought my first skidoo since 2003.

I agree Poo could offer a 4s some day but no idea if that day will ever happen. So yes time to watch Doo 4s model expansion as they will expand 4s to market demand. Also Yamaha’s time to fish or cut bait with new products way overdue and many or leaving SWs and Apex for the 900t. Yamaha has nothing again in 2020 to stop the bleeding so 2021 imo is do or die for Yamaha.

 

[74Nitro]

Anyone have factual numbers for 2019 sales from manufacturers, and 4 stroke compared to 2 stroke models?

 

[74Nitro]

No I didn’t bother with pricing for the doo 850 in March I knew there were deals on non currents but 2s not for me. I found good discounts on the 2019 Enduro 900t and my dealer choice had color and accessories good to go and it was important to me to get riding my new sled in epic northern WI snow. It was easy for me coming off an Apex xtx no used cherries in my area ,poo doesn’t have a 4s so my comparo was the Sidewinder at 180 hp and heavier by 30 to 60 lbs than the Enduro 900t. I wanted to buy a Yamaha but nothing available in the 150 pony market niche. I knew how the SW handled so my test riding was concentrated on different shocked Renegades. Obviously I was impressed with the Enduro 900t and bought my first skidoo since 2003.

I agree Poo could offer a 4s some day but no idea if that day will ever happen. So yes time to watch Doo 4s model expansion as they will expand 4s to market demand. Also Yamaha’s time to fish or cut bait with new products way overdue and many or leaving SWs and Apex for the 900t. Yamaha has nothing again in 2020 to stop the bleeding so 2021 imo is do or die for Yamaha.

It is actually Doo that needs to catch up in the Turbo class.

 

[MarkAttack]

OK I have it all figured out.. If anyone wants an Ultimate sled why don't they purchase a Blade?

 

[whitedust1]

It is actually Doo that needs to catch up in the Turbo class.

No idea what they will do with 4s turbo in the doo product line. They could punch it up via tune say 180 hp maybe more but I’m not sure where it would fit in their product line at that hp? Remember the 850 2s is their flagship top seller and hp sled. Imo doo probably will proliferate the 900t as is thruout their product line ....maybe a shorty MXZ? I was asked by Doo dealer what hp Doo needed when they had the 4s 1200 and I said 150 is a mass market 4s sweet spot he passed that along to doo and eventually that’s what they released. 900 and 600 NA 4s sells well at 100hp and about 65hp for the 600. No interest to me but many do buy them.

 

[MarkAttack]

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist.....

View attachment 148506

I had not been on this site for 4 years.. I bought a 2014 Skidoo Reneagade X 800 E-tech .. It's light fun to ride.. .. My 2006 Attack is in a bind can't keep sliders or track clips on it.. I purchased an M-20 air suspension have not installed it ..yet .. Need extrovert Drivers cut out the track windows fully clip it as all tracks should be..

 

[MarkAttack]

No idea what they will do with 4s turbo in the doo product line. They could punch it up via tune say 180 hp maybe more but I’m not sure where it would fit in their product line at that hp? Remember the 850 2s is their flagship top seller and hp sled. Imo doo probably will proliferate the 900t as is thruout their product line ....maybe a shorty MXZ? I was asked by Doo dealer what hp Doo needed when they had the 4s 1200 and I said 150 is a mass market 4s sweet spot he passed that along to doo and eventually that’s what they released. 900 and 600 NA 4s sells well at 100hp and about 65hp for the 600. No interest to me but many do buy them.

It seems to me Liability would be a concern for anything over 150 HP .. You need a Turbo at 10,000 feet at low altitudes not so much ..

 

[MarkAttack]

No idea what they will do with 4s turbo in the doo product line. They could punch it up via tune say 180 hp maybe more but I’m not sure where it would fit in their product line at that hp? Remember the 850 2s is their flagship top seller and hp sled. Imo doo probably will proliferate the 900t as is thruout their product line ....maybe a shorty MXZ? I was asked by Doo dealer what hp Doo needed when they had the 4s 1200 and I said 150 is a mass market 4s sweet spot he passed that along to doo and eventually that’s what they released. 900 and 600 NA 4s sells well at 100hp and about 65hp for the 600. No interest to me but many do buy them.

My Cousin says those Big HP sleds are the first ones to the accident.. He bought a Liquid Cooled Polaris TX Indy the first year they came out with it and he rode it for many many years..
He also had the fastest car in the County in 1956 he had a Chevy with the 265 Cube 265 HP dual 4 barrel Corvette engine option..
60 Years later he still loves his Chevy ies and Polaris .. I was spreading lime behind his house one day in the Spring.. I stopped and told him I Snow checked the New Yamaha 4 stroke .. He got really Angry at me.. Imagine the never of me buying something made in Japan.. He is very Pro American Pro Union ..
His wife later told me that he thought I was antagonizing him with the fact that I bought a Jap Made Yamaha.. I never gave it any thought .. I was just excited I had ordered a new Snowmobile ..
More money to Japan and less money to Saudi Arabia for Gas.. My Attack runs way to rich so I always add about 2 gallons of E-85 to every tank full .. no soot in my tail pipes anymore..

 

[20/80]

Just had a sit down in person meeting with the Yamaha snowmobile Division /Yam-a-God’s today. They are definitely looking to push forward. They had many questions for me as being a multi line dealer and being a solid Snowmobile rider myself. They really wanted my input as a dealer and rider.

They asked many questions and here is just a few important ones.
What do Snowmobile riders want?

Units needed for the future of Snowmobiles.
Horse Power / speed.
Suspension/ Shock packages.
Handling.
Weight.
Power Steering.
Rider Comfort.
Adjustability.
Track options.
Ski’s.
Colors / style.
Storage/ Accessories.
Promotions/ Rebates.
Warranties.
Price.
and Etc.

This is my eyes is not a Company looking to surrender but cares about the Yamaha snowmobiler’s needs and wants to succeed in the future. I believe they are looking long and beyond AC/Textron’s involvement for future snowmobile sales.

Just my speculation!!

Yamaha has been in the snowmobile business sense the 60's, and for the life of me.. if they don't know by now what their snowmobile costumers are wanting in a sled they are doomed!!! what are their NEW snowmobile engineering team at their new headquarters in Canada doing??? Yes... they developed a new turbo engine a few years back but everything else has been given on the shirt tails of Cat, well this costumer wants Yamaha to stand on their OWN two feet again and provide their own pure Yamaha built line up, stop with the painted Cat chassis.... BUILD YOUR OWN!!!!! YAMAHA PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY!!!!!

 

[MarkAttack]

Yamaha needs to build more than what current Yamaha riders want. They need to build what current Cat,Doo, and Poo riders want and do it better, in order to get them away from those brands. Bottom line build a 850cc 2 stroke with 170 hp that doesn't blow up and can realistically achieve 10,000 miles. Along with a good ride and handling chassis like a Cat, Doo, Poo and you will sell a ton. I enjoy my turbo but I think i'd buy a Yamaha made 850 smoker.

What if The Cat and Doo Riders are as Brand Loyal as some of the Yamaha owners are on here? They won't change brands no matter what.. Very few sleds are used for hard core racing.. I head the Speed limit for sleds in Ontario is 50 KPH .. even on Lakes.. that's insane..
There was over 100 Brands of snowmobiles now there are 3.5
It costs Millions to develop a new Sled.. Cats weakness was quality .. and Yamaha's was weight and outdated suspension .. The Two worked together and came out with a "I assume " Durable lighter weight more reliable sled that handles well

 

[MarkAttack]

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist.....

View attachment 148506

I have a photo of Hitler as "Man of the year" on the cover of Time Magazine .. but the rules say no Polo tics so I decided not to share it

 

[ClutchMaster]

I have a photo of Hitler as "Man of the year" on the cover of Time Magazine .. but the rules say no Polo tics so I decided not to share it

It’s true!
It’s called Brain Washing.
Germany was one of the worlds most intellectual countries of the day.
Just goes to show ya people aren’t always as smart as they lead themselves to believe.

 

[geez150]

What if The Cat and Doo Riders are as Brand Loyal as some of the Yamaha owners are on here? They won't change brands no matter what.. Very few sleds are used for hard core racing.. I head the Speed limit for sleds in Ontario is 50 KPH .. even on Lakes.. that's insane..
There was over 100 Brands of snowmobiles now there are 3.5
It costs Millions to develop a new Sled.. Cats weakness was quality .. and Yamaha's was weight and outdated suspension .. The Two worked together and came out with a "I assume " Durable lighter weight more reliable sled that handles well

Yes this is true and im not saying you are going to win over the hearts and minds of everyone at one time. But look at what Doo has done. They have stolen a mass majority of Cat, Poo and Yam owners. Poo is finally winning some ground back after the 900&755 that tanked their snowmobile business. Doo and Poo 850 owners are tired of sleds hatching like an egg and Cat 800 owners have either own issues. So I stand by what I said. Make a Yamaha 850cc 2stroke at 170hp that can truly live to 10,000 miles as well as a chassis that can and you will stand the industry on it's ear and steal back some of what Doo stole from Yamaha. Will it happen year one. No! It will take at least a year of real world tests and owners showing how good this new engine is and have little to no motors go down. Then you will slowly crawl out from under the rock. At this point you do the same with a new 600 and heck maybe get back into racing. At this point it's game on! I agree with the others about the average person does about 1000-1500 miles a year. I fall into that only due to lack of snow in my immediate area, I ride a 4stroke not because I put on a ton of miles, but because I don't want to worry about the motor while I own the sled. If I could get a lighter weight, better on fuel 850 that I knew would last me 10k I would buy it in a heartbeat. But I don't want a sled that it's motor is going to be a question mark at 4000+ miles or possibly sooner.

 

[baggs66]

My Cousin says those Big HP sleds are the first ones to the accident.. He bought a Liquid Cooled Polaris TX Indy the first year they came out with it and he rode it for many many years..
He also had the fastest car in the County in 1956 he had a Chevy with the 265 Cube 265 HP dual 4 barrel Corvette engine option..
60 Years later he still loves his Chevy ies and Polaris .. I was spreading lime behind his house one day in the Spring.. I stopped and told him I Snow checked the New Yamaha 4 stroke .. He got really Angry at me.. Imagine the never of me buying something made in Japan.. He is very Pro American Pro Union ..
His wife later told me that he thought I was antagonizing him with the fact that I bought a Jap Made Yamaha.. I never gave it any thought .. I was just excited I had ordered a new Snowmobile ..
More money to Japan and less money to Saudi Arabia for Gas.. My Attack runs way to rich so I always add about 2 gallons of E-85 to every tank full .. no soot in my tail pipes anymore..

I think it's funny he always buys polaris because he didn't want jap stuff, what did he think fugi was, probably their best motors, i had a friend say the same thing his polaris has a made in usa sticker on it why buy jap stuff, i would ask him where fugi was made and he would get pissed lol.