Oops, sorry man...BBY
Tork
TY 4 Stroke God
mdkuni said:
I just put the pink back in at 60 (no manual and no internet up north, I thought 60 was right.)
Ran the 23 T and white spring jumping on Janitys idea early on last year. Didnt like that the RPMs didnt drop down on cruise, and shifting except at WOT seemed sluggish.
With the pink it seems out of the hole faster and clutching is way more responsive for trail riding.
Strange problem tho, now I over rev on top (100+), that should not be.
I did swap belts, maybe I grabbed a worn one
PMed Turk a couple weeks ago, said the logical more wt in the TIP.
They told me today I already have the biggest rivit in the tip. Is this true?
satan660
Extreme
i found 06 apex 23 top gear, pink spring on 60 (3-3) stock helix stock weights and stock primary mine would over rev 11000.. by just changeing the primary spring to softer finish.... becuz cant make stock weights any heavyer... it dropped my rpms down to 10800-10900. thinking of going even softer to load the motor more you think i am going the wrong way
SRXracer
Expert
Ya, i usually junk a belt by the time it hits 800-1000 miles, we do alot of racing, and that is hard on belts.
The heaviest rivets are already in the weights, so you need to adjust with either helix angle or primary spring.
I personally think these motors really like to be loaded pretty hard, so i wouldn't be afraid of running down around 10500 or 10600. All you can do it give it a try...
The heaviest rivets are already in the weights, so you need to adjust with either helix angle or primary spring.
I personally think these motors really like to be loaded pretty hard, so i wouldn't be afraid of running down around 10500 or 10600. All you can do it give it a try...
i noticed on my attak that when i race it slams to 10,800 10,900 out of the hole it seems to be working pretty good
agaguk
Extreme
For you guys who were still using the stock yam helix did you installed the 3 5/16" lock washers behind the helix like we did on the rx-1 instead of machining it???
Don,t get me started on the washer thingee.
rx1 fern
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
listen to turk he knows his #*$&@
ptt
Guest
"If your sled is running better with the white on a shortie your problem is your primary is overpowering your secondary & the white is helping keep a better balance but at a cost of some efficiency"
I agree that the primary is applying more "force" and the secondary is NOT applying enough force to balance it out.
Sign: The Secondary would be "hotter" than the Primary.
The tuner when to a "stiffer" sec. springNow the secondary applied enough "force" to = the primary "force"
Sign: The secondary was "cooler" than the previous run.
More efficient.
Why do you say this cost the tuner efficiency?
"By using the white you have the secondary & primary fighting against each other"
Do you? Aren't they working together in unison?
"You would be better off & gain a poopload of performance by lightening the primary clutch & loosening back the secondary pretension"
Another way to skin the cat
When does the tuner know he has TOO much spring force?
satan660 wrote:
white spring i found the primary was hotter... and with the white spring at 60 my rpm was, off the line about 10300 then climb to 10900-11000 but at that rpm seemed to me it stop pulling... and with the dalton helix even with the pink spring it would climb to 11000... so i went with the stock helix with pink spring at 60 and still climb to 11000 so i tried the primary spring blue white blue brought my rpm down to 10700-10800 lost off the line but gained on the top
Summary:
Goals; good hole shot and top end
Helix 51-43 Dalton
white spring 3-3
what you like - bottom end
what you don't like - top end
Hotter Primary.
RPM'S: 10300, then climb to 10900-11000
Helix 51-43 dalton
Pink 3-3
what you like - top end
what you don't like - bottom end
RPMS: climb to 11000 (what was the initial RPM)
What was the heat like?
Helix 51-43 yamaha
Pink 3 -3
likes - top end
dislikes - you don't say.
RPMS: climb to 11000 (what was the initial RPM)
What was the heat like?
Helix: 51-43 yamaha
Pink 3-3
Primary: blue-white-blue
Likes - top end
dislikes - bottom end
RPMS: down to 10700-10800 (what was the initial RPM)
I think you found out what RPM your sled likes to run at
Primary springs:
Stock: 35-24.5
B-W-B: 45 - 19.6
Why do yo think that you lost bottom end?
SRXracer wrote:
A good example.. i was running the stock stuff at 130 speedo in a 2000' run at 11,000, i put my ulmer setup back in, it was running at 10,400, and it ran 2-3 mph faster the same day, same distance
Curious: How many miles on the sled when you saw this?
My problem is that i am running 11000-11100 past 100 mph, and i am think i am loosing a little bit of pull on the big end. Anyone have any ideas on the best way to get that down with the stock components. Its tough to add to the stock weights, so its either a softer primary spring, or maybe a helix?
What helix are you running right now?
do you tune to a brand new belt, a slightly wore belt, or what? I tend to think a brand new belt is great, but your setup still has to work after you get a few 100 miles on it.
When first setting up, a NEW belt is recommended.
Yes you setup would still work after a few 100 miles on it.
The hole reason of starting with a new belt is, the belt has not chance of being "galzed".
Once the clutching is set up belts last much longer b/c the tuner should have control of the heat, control the heat belts don't slip = less glazing.
Turk wrote:48/40 advant-edge will get er down to the sweet spot
WHY?
TORK wrote:
I just put the pink back in at 60 (no manual and no internet up north, I thought 60 was right.)
Ran the 23 T and white spring jumping on Janitys idea early on last year. Didnt like that the RPMs didnt drop down on cruise, and shifting except at WOT seemed sluggish.
With the pink it seems out of the hole faster and clutching is way more responsive for trail riding.
Strange problem tho, now I over rev on top (100+), that should not be.
I did swap belts, maybe I grabbed a worn one
What are you RPM'S? from a dig to top end?
BLACK700 wrote:
i noticed on my attak that when i race it slams to 10,800 10,900 out of the hole it seems to be working pretty good.
That's what I like to hear.
ptt
I agree that the primary is applying more "force" and the secondary is NOT applying enough force to balance it out.
Sign: The Secondary would be "hotter" than the Primary.
The tuner when to a "stiffer" sec. springNow the secondary applied enough "force" to = the primary "force"
Sign: The secondary was "cooler" than the previous run.
More efficient.
Why do you say this cost the tuner efficiency?
"By using the white you have the secondary & primary fighting against each other"
Do you? Aren't they working together in unison?
"You would be better off & gain a poopload of performance by lightening the primary clutch & loosening back the secondary pretension"
Another way to skin the cat
When does the tuner know he has TOO much spring force?
satan660 wrote:
white spring i found the primary was hotter... and with the white spring at 60 my rpm was, off the line about 10300 then climb to 10900-11000 but at that rpm seemed to me it stop pulling... and with the dalton helix even with the pink spring it would climb to 11000... so i went with the stock helix with pink spring at 60 and still climb to 11000 so i tried the primary spring blue white blue brought my rpm down to 10700-10800 lost off the line but gained on the top
Summary:
Goals; good hole shot and top end
Helix 51-43 Dalton
white spring 3-3
what you like - bottom end
what you don't like - top end
Hotter Primary.
RPM'S: 10300, then climb to 10900-11000
Helix 51-43 dalton
Pink 3-3
what you like - top end
what you don't like - bottom end
RPMS: climb to 11000 (what was the initial RPM)
What was the heat like?
Helix 51-43 yamaha
Pink 3 -3
likes - top end
dislikes - you don't say.
RPMS: climb to 11000 (what was the initial RPM)
What was the heat like?
Helix: 51-43 yamaha
Pink 3-3
Primary: blue-white-blue
Likes - top end
dislikes - bottom end
RPMS: down to 10700-10800 (what was the initial RPM)
I think you found out what RPM your sled likes to run at
Primary springs:
Stock: 35-24.5
B-W-B: 45 - 19.6
Why do yo think that you lost bottom end?
SRXracer wrote:
A good example.. i was running the stock stuff at 130 speedo in a 2000' run at 11,000, i put my ulmer setup back in, it was running at 10,400, and it ran 2-3 mph faster the same day, same distance
Curious: How many miles on the sled when you saw this?
My problem is that i am running 11000-11100 past 100 mph, and i am think i am loosing a little bit of pull on the big end. Anyone have any ideas on the best way to get that down with the stock components. Its tough to add to the stock weights, so its either a softer primary spring, or maybe a helix?
What helix are you running right now?
do you tune to a brand new belt, a slightly wore belt, or what? I tend to think a brand new belt is great, but your setup still has to work after you get a few 100 miles on it.
When first setting up, a NEW belt is recommended.
Yes you setup would still work after a few 100 miles on it.
The hole reason of starting with a new belt is, the belt has not chance of being "galzed".
Once the clutching is set up belts last much longer b/c the tuner should have control of the heat, control the heat belts don't slip = less glazing.
Turk wrote:48/40 advant-edge will get er down to the sweet spot
WHY?
TORK wrote:
I just put the pink back in at 60 (no manual and no internet up north, I thought 60 was right.)
Ran the 23 T and white spring jumping on Janitys idea early on last year. Didnt like that the RPMs didnt drop down on cruise, and shifting except at WOT seemed sluggish.
With the pink it seems out of the hole faster and clutching is way more responsive for trail riding.
Strange problem tho, now I over rev on top (100+), that should not be.
I did swap belts, maybe I grabbed a worn one
What are you RPM'S? from a dig to top end?
BLACK700 wrote:
i noticed on my attak that when i race it slams to 10,800 10,900 out of the hole it seems to be working pretty good.
That's what I like to hear.
ptt
I prefer to run
in the primary
lightest primary weight i can run with the softest primary spring that will do the job
In the secondary
the shallowest helix combined with just enuff driven spring to stop the belt from slipping.
This can change as snow conditions change too.
I suggested the 48/40 cus the guy was overreving & he is basically maxed out with his weights. The 48/40 in my testing tends to drop rpms 2-400 rpm,s over the stock apex helix & this is probably the easiest way to get him where he needs to be.
Nice to see some constructive debating. Everyone has a different way to skin a cat. there is no right way or wrong way & on a different day one set up will outperform something else that has been known to work well.
in the primary
lightest primary weight i can run with the softest primary spring that will do the job
In the secondary
the shallowest helix combined with just enuff driven spring to stop the belt from slipping.
This can change as snow conditions change too.
I suggested the 48/40 cus the guy was overreving & he is basically maxed out with his weights. The 48/40 in my testing tends to drop rpms 2-400 rpm,s over the stock apex helix & this is probably the easiest way to get him where he needs to be.
Nice to see some constructive debating. Everyone has a different way to skin a cat. there is no right way or wrong way & on a different day one set up will outperform something else that has been known to work well.
We all certainly tune different. Many years ago while around racing, I was always taught to tune your primary first, throw as much weight at it as possible without pulling the Rs down. From there tune your secondary to achieve desired backshift and holeshot you are looking for. Definetely 2 ways to skin a cat...BBY
RacerDave
Expert
Very true Turk, and the ridder/tuner that knows how to change for varying conditions day to day will always be out front.
BADSLED
Lifetime Member
- Joined
- May 13, 2004
- Messages
- 1,356
- Location
- Syracuse, NY
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2012 Nytro MC Xpress 270
2011 Apex SE
2021 Sidewinder LTX SE - SOLD
Nice to see different approaches to clutching. Let's keep it going, very informative as well. Great to have a site like this to share... 
SRXracer
Expert
Right now i am running stock clutching, so its the factory 51/43 helix. Turk, on the bottom end, i am running about 10000, and building to the 11000 at 100 mph+. Would that 48/40 bump me up a bit on the bottom end also, to something like 10200? DO you know what the "correction factor" is to equate the advant-edge numbers to yamaha? Seems like the must be 4 deg or so steeper compared to a yammie.
The sled had about 2500 miles on when we were doing this testing.
My thoughts on the b-w-b primary spring is that since the engagement is alot higher, and the rate is alot lower, you were probably spinning the track and not hooking up, that is why it was slower on the bottom. Maybe a y-p-y which has the same rate, a touch lower engagement, and less total force would be better?
The sled had about 2500 miles on when we were doing this testing.
My thoughts on the b-w-b primary spring is that since the engagement is alot higher, and the rate is alot lower, you were probably spinning the track and not hooking up, that is why it was slower on the bottom. Maybe a y-p-y which has the same rate, a touch lower engagement, and less total force would be better?
The 48/40 would kill your rpm,s down low too much. You need a helix change. I would go to about 2 degrees less initial & 2 degrees more on the finish. Something close to a 49/45 but then again it depends on whose helix your using.Hey; ya know; i just happen to have a 49/45 helix kikken around. It,s a bender. Their helix,s are a little on the aggressive side tho & not sure how it will work. Back to the previous post I have seen a 10 degree change in secondary wrap make a 2-3 length difference in the mid on any given day slower & faster. .
