Starter, Gears and One Way Clutch Inspection

[grizztracks]

installed a new starter in a 2008 Vector and was having a hard time getting the nose of the starter stabbed in the engine case. Started to think I had the wrong starter then realized the nose of the old starter was still in the hole. Must have broke off when the idler gear was stripped.

When I was taking the pictures I realized that this starter had a internal sealed roller bearing in the end cap to support the shaft of the starter but nothing for support in the nose cone. I compared this 2008 Vector starter with 2,200 miles on the engine to a 2005 Vector starter with around 3,000 miles on it which was replaced a few weeks back and found that the 2005 had a needle bearing that extended into the nose of the starter.

2008 starter

2005 starter

The 2005 version looks to be a much better setup with needle bearings that were kept oiled by the engine oil than the 2008 with a internal sealed bearing. I should have payed better attention to some of the other starters I pulled. With low mileage on both these I'm assuming they are OEM but now I'm wonder if there are variations in what Yamaha stuck in these sleds.

 

[Deeppow16]

The starter on my 08 nytro had the needle bearings in it!

 

[grizztracks]

The starter on my 08 nytro had the needle bearings in it!

Maybe this 2008 vector with the sealed bearing was an aftermarket starter although with only 2200 miles I wouldn't have thought so.

 

[Deeppow16]

Yeah who knows! But like you said, yamaha might have been putting miss match starters in. Maybe they had a bunch of inventory of the bushing ones for something else and started throwing those in to use them up!

 

[Sno-Xr]

Ok, Wingnut just tore in to his starter clutch assembly chasing the same type of issues many are having. Had his starter rebuilt a few weeks ago thinking it was the issue, but the rebuilder said it really didnt appear too bad. Replaced the bearings and did a straight forward rebuild. Same squalling noise he had before! Now he has the clutch all apart and the only noticeable issue is where the clutch bearings grab the machined surface of the gear. It is smooth, but has signs of extreme heat. See pic. Also, WTH is part number 14 and what is its purpose!?!?

 

[grizztracks]

check the spring in the one way clutch. I think if it gets stretched the locking rollers might drag and not fully disengage.

I'm not sure how qualified the guy is that rebuilt the starter but make sure he checks the spacing between magnets to make sure one didn't slip putting it out of phase.

 

[Sno-Xr]

Will do, thanks. He has a local starter/alternator shop that has been around for 25 plus years, so Im hoping he has things figured out. I will def ask him to recheck the magnet spacing and for any damage. The starter sounds like hell right now with out any of the clutch parts attatched, so it will def be going back for inspection.

My guess is the clutch isnt dissengaging when the sled starts and is spinning the pizz out of the starter until it does? Sound about right?

Any ideas on part number 14?? Purpose? Any particular direction it should be inserted when insatlling the bolt?

Thanks again

 

[cannondale27]

Will do, thanks. He has a local starter/alternator shop that has been around for 25 plus years, so Im hoping he has things figured out. I will def ask him to recheck the magnet spacing and for any damage. The starter sounds like hell right now with out any of the clutch parts attatched, so it will def be going back for inspection.

My guess is the clutch isnt dissengaging when the sled starts and is spinning the pizz out of the starter until it does? Sound about right?

Any ideas on part number 14?? Purpose? Any particular direction it should be inserted when insatlling the bolt?

Thanks again

Oil slinger. Spinning crank acts like a centrifuge and will build up with crud from oil. Like the filters old Hondas used to have.

 

[FrodeS]

Hello.
I am new to this forum, although I've been reading for a while. Hope it is OK i continue this thread. If not, advise is welcomed.

I've owned a 2006 Venture TF 4-stroke for about a month. It is a high milage with almost 14.000 km on it. Yamaha is reputed for its outstanding durability, so I took a chance, sold the 2001 AC Triple touring and hoped for the best.

... and failed epically it seems.

This one is owned by yamaha them self for the three first years, and most of the km is put on it during those years.

It started and ran well when tested. After about 400 meters(!) in my ownership, the drive shaft broke. So, I replaced the drive shaft, all bearings, oil service (yamalube 0w30), some of the wheels the belt runs on. Spent around USD 900 on that, and everything ran well. Tested it for around 30 km before I took it to our cabin, my doughter and I. Everything still fine, until the day after, when the starter relay just clicked. After 30-40-50 attepmts, it started fine. This repeated it self for some days. The day we went home, it had too litle power to start, so I attaced one of the 12V batteries in the cabin to give it a jump start. It started fine, ran for 15 min and sat for 1 hr. It then started fine without any additional battery, and it worked well the 10 km back to the car. It was stopped, everything loaded into the car, and when I tried to start it to load it on the trailer, nothing happened. No click, no nothing. It was hauled onto the trailer, and after 3 hrs back home, it would again click the starter relay as before, but no way it would start. Due to a oil hose comming loose, it had a top up with around 0,5 liters of 5-40 agip syntetic oil during our stay at the cabin.

I've done some quick research now, and found the following: Starter relay is dead. It has +12V in, and nothing going out when it clicks. If I jump it with a screwdriver, sparks fly, but nothing else happen. This tells me there is a short in the starter it self, and it need replacing. As I understand, it is quite a job. I can handle it, but can't say I am looking forward to it. I am familiar with tools and cars. Snowmobiles not so, but I have managed quite some work on both the AC and the Venture so far.
One way bearing seems to work fine.

My goal is to have it ready and tested before easter, when we are hoping to go back to the cabin.

1: Does it seem right what I've found out?
2: Where do I buy a starter? A quote locally was NOK 6000, equalling around USD 700 for only the starter motor. I see them at around 150-220 USD online. I will have to pay shipping and +25% tax on that, so I am probably looking at around USD 300 to have it here.
3: Would it be better to just part this thing out, as it is appear to have some witchcraft applyed to it. I've drove it for less than 80 km, and it is on its 2nd breakdown of things that "never" happen. I paid around USD 3200 for it, wich is considered cheap here. I can not blame the previous owner for this faults, as they did not appear at the time I bought it.

 

[cannondale27]

Hello.
I am new to this forum, although I've been reading for a while. Hope it is OK i continue this thread. If not, advise is welcomed.

I've owned a 2006 Venture TF 4-stroke for about a month. It is a high milage with almost 14.000 km on it. Yamaha is reputed for its outstanding durability, so I took a chance, sold the 2001 AC Triple touring and hoped for the best.

... and failed epically it seems.

This one is owned by yamaha them self for the three first years, and most of the km is put on it during those years.

It started and ran well when tested. After about 400 meters(!) in my ownership, the drive shaft broke. So, I replaced the drive shaft, all bearings, oil service (yamalube 0w30), some of the wheels the belt runs on. Spent around USD 900 on that, and everything ran well. Tested it for around 30 km before I took it to our cabin, my doughter and I. Everything still fine, until the day after, when the starter relay just clicked. After 30-40-50 attepmts, it started fine. This repeated it self for some days. The day we went home, it had too litle power to start, so I attaced one of the 12V batteries in the cabin to give it a jump start. It started fine, ran for 15 min and sat for 1 hr. It then started fine without any additional battery, and it worked well the 10 km back to the car. It was stopped, everything loaded into the car, and when I tried to start it to load it on the trailer, nothing happened. No click, no nothing. It was hauled onto the trailer, and after 3 hrs back home, it would again click the starter relay as before, but no way it would start. Due to a oil hose comming loose, it had a top up with around 0,5 liters of 5-40 agip syntetic oil during our stay at the cabin.

I've done some quick research now, and found the following: Starter relay is dead. It has +12V in, and nothing going out when it clicks. If I jump it with a screwdriver, sparks fly, but nothing else happen. This tells me there is a short in the starter it self, and it need replacing. As I understand, it is quite a job. I can handle it, but can't say I am looking forward to it. I am familiar with tools and cars. Snowmobiles not so, but I have managed quite some work on both the AC and the Venture so far.
One way bearing seems to work fine.

My goal is to have it ready and tested before easter, when we are hoping to go back to the cabin.

1: Does it seem right what I've found out?
2: Where do I buy a starter? A quote locally was NOK 6000, equalling around USD 700 for only the starter motor. I see them at around 150-220 USD online. I will have to pay shipping and +25% tax on that, so I am probably looking at around USD 300 to have it here.
3: Would it be better to just part this thing out, as it is appear to have some witchcraft applyed to it. I've drove it for less than 80 km, and it is on its 2nd breakdown of things that "never" happen. I paid around USD 3200 for it, wich is considered cheap here. I can not blame the previous owner for this faults, as they did not appear at the time I bought it.

I am sorry or rather ashamed of your trouble with starter. But it is worth fixing if done right. Follow Grizztracks posts on the issue. Do not skip steps. Inspect everything related to starter including the gears. At that point make decision on parting it out. I would not but if gear is broke all pieces must be found. That’s the big one. I have never had to open up a Yamaha motor other than dirt bikes and quads for normal overhaul. But the reward would be worth it for me. Mine is approaching 13000 mi and has never left me down. Try to think of all that potential fun when doing the job. Welcome to site and we will help you along the way as much as possible. Just need to call and research.

 

[FrodeS]

Thank you.
I think the gears are OK. I can hear the starter spinning when turning the motor backwards, and not when turned in the right direction.

I’ll look up grizztrack. I’ve read some of his posts.

Is it «normal» a bad starter motor short circiut like this?

I know you are right, I just have to fix it, and do it properly, hoping it will be allright from then on. Just a bit fed up after having this kind of trouble so soon. I had to do major overhaul of the gear box on the AC after buying it two years ago too, but that time it was a seller trying to fool me. It caused me a lot of work, and he probably thinks twice before attempting the same again. One may wonder if I am meant to have such a machine :-/

 

[Mooseman]

I had that problem with my second starter. It was shorted internally and would heat up the battery wire. Be sure to replace the relay, if not already done,as it might have been damaged with the extra current. Use only a genuine Yamaha relay as they are crucial that they work properly and not stick on when used and burn out your new starter.

 

[cannondale27]

And don’t turn this motor over backwards. Can cause timing to jump.

 

[FrodeS]

Thanks for the advice. I already have done twice, but will not do it again.

The relay is toast, no question about it. I've ordered a new after market, but if they are known for failing this way, I will order a genuine one. Maybe also the starter saver kit I've seen.

I am about to order a new starter motor. Will try to find one in Europe at close to descent price, as the overseas shipping might be everything from 3 days to 2 months. Does this seem to be the correct starter motor: https://www.ebay.com/itm/RICKS-64-4...ash=item4b189de442:g:JkwAAOSwaEhZLJ7u&vxp=mtr ?

 

[grizztracks]

I've installed Rick's starters. It should be a good aftermarket for your sled. When you lift/rock the engine there is a small coolant hose coming off the top of the coolant pump that can get cut on the frame rail. The small hose runs between the pump and carbs and I disconnect it so it doesn't get cut and cause a leak later.