Starter, Gears and One Way Clutch Inspection

[03RX1-ER-LE]

Hello.
I am new to this forum, although I've been reading for a while. Hope it is OK i continue this thread. If not, advise is welcomed.

I've owned a 2006 Venture TF 4-stroke for about a month. It is a high milage with almost 14.000 km on it. Yamaha is reputed for its outstanding durability, so I took a chance, sold the 2001 AC Triple touring and hoped for the best.

... and failed epically it seems.

This one is owned by yamaha them self for the three first years, and most of the km is put on it during those years.

It started and ran well when tested. After about 400 meters(!) in my ownership, the drive shaft broke. So, I replaced the drive shaft, all bearings, oil service (yamalube 0w30), some of the wheels the belt runs on. Spent around USD 900 on that, and everything ran well. Tested it for around 30 km before I took it to our cabin, my doughter and I. Everything still fine, until the day after, when the starter relay just clicked. After 30-40-50 attepmts, it started fine. This repeated it self for some days. The day we went home, it had too litle power to start, so I attaced one of the 12V batteries in the cabin to give it a jump start. It started fine, ran for 15 min and sat for 1 hr. It then started fine without any additional battery, and it worked well the 10 km back to the car. It was stopped, everything loaded into the car, and when I tried to start it to load it on the trailer, nothing happened. No click, no nothing. It was hauled onto the trailer, and after 3 hrs back home, it would again click the starter relay as before, but no way it would start. Due to a oil hose comming loose, it had a top up with around 0,5 liters of 5-40 agip syntetic oil during our stay at the cabin.

I've done some quick research now, and found the following: Starter relay is dead. It has +12V in, and nothing going out when it clicks. If I jump it with a screwdriver, sparks fly, but nothing else happen. This tells me there is a short in the starter it self, and it need replacing. As I understand, it is quite a job. I can handle it, but can't say I am looking forward to it. I am familiar with tools and cars. Snowmobiles not so, but I have managed quite some work on both the AC and the Venture so far.
One way bearing seems to work fine.

My goal is to have it ready and tested before easter, when we are hoping to go back to the cabin.

1: Does it seem right what I've found out?
2: Where do I buy a starter? A quote locally was NOK 6000, equalling around USD 700 for only the starter motor. I see them at around 150-220 USD online. I will have to pay shipping and +25% tax on that, so I am probably looking at around USD 300 to have it here.
3: Would it be better to just part this thing out, as it is appear to have some witchcraft applyed to it. I've drove it for less than 80 km, and it is on its 2nd breakdown of things that "never" happen. I paid around USD 3200 for it, wich is considered cheap here. I can not blame the previous owner for this faults, as they did not appear at the time I bought it.

Couple comments "Driveshaft broke" you later mentioned sled damage by the cooler in front of track (belt as you call it) underneath, sounds like rock or stump damaged driveshaft, not a driveshaft failure, but damage from hitting something was the root cause. 2nd comment, you mentioned jumping sled to start it, battery's cause so many concerns making people scratch their head and look beyond when the battery could be your root cause.

 

[FrodeS]

Whatever reason, the drive shaft broke. It is said to be "common" problem on high milage ventures. So I heard from a guy on Svalbard, having this sleds for rent when they were new. They put lots of km on them up there. There might be, the same thing causing the dent underneath also caused damage to the shaft, that developed over time.

The battery is fine after charging. It is not the problem. I've tried jumping the relay. Sparks fly, and the screwdriver got "welded" stock to the relay. All this without the starter doing anything.

 

[FrodeS]

Still awaiting the new starter motor, but it is close now. It appeared in the customs after being some were between Italy and Norway for a week.
I cracked open the starter relay and had a look at it today. For some, it is probably obvious, but it was not for me. There are two fuses on the relay, both 30A. One does nothing at all, just a spare. The other one is the main fuse for everything but the starter and starter relay it self. It is only mounted there for conveniemce.

I am not too impressed with the design of this relay, and have no problem seeing why it may stick. There are two springs, one activating it, the other one deactivating it. The last one is a bit stronger, keeping it normally open. When you turn the key, the electric magnet work together with the first spring, making it closed.
If a bit out of balance, it would easily keep being engaged.

Mine was open at all time. At the bottom of the relay, a round plate is pushed against two others, making a connection. After years of use, the connection was not good any more. I was not able to take it to pieces to clean it. I put some fine sand(!) in it, turned it round and round for a while, and blew it all clean with compressed air.

A new one is on its way, but the old one is once more working well. I like fixing stuff. Besides, I don’t see this relay failing as critical, as long as it is not stuck on. I’ll probably put a warning light in, letting me know if it is activated.

 

[cannondale27]

Still awaiting the new starter motor, but it is close now. It appeared in the customs after being some were between Italy and Norway for a week.
I cracked open the starter relay and had a look at it today. For some, it is probably obvious, but it was not for me. There are two fuses on the relay, both 30A. One does nothing at all, just a spare. The other one is the main fuse for everything but the starter and starter relay it self. It is only mounted there for conveniemce.

I am not too impressed with the design of this relay, and have no problem seeing why it may stick. There are two springs, one activating it, the other one deactivating it. The last one is a bit stronger, keeping it normally open. When you turn the key, the electric magnet work together with the first spring, making it closed.
If a bit out of balance, it would easily keep being engaged.

Mine was open at all time. At the bottom of the relay, a round plate is pushed against two others, making a connection. After years of use, the connection was not good any more. I was not able to take it to pieces to clean it. I put some fine sand(!) in it, turned it round and round for a while, and blew it all clean with compressed air.

A new one is on its way, but the old one is once more working well. I like fixing stuff. Besides, I don’t see this relay failing as critical, as long as it is not stuck on. I’ll probably put a warning light in, letting me know if it is activated.

View attachment 139367 View attachment 139368

Cool! Never saw insides of one. Yea looks pretty cheaply made.

 

[FrodeS]

Well, OK. The starter is out. Removed front motor mounts and pulled it up in the front with two retchet straps. It worked, bearly. I really had to work the straps to get enough clearance.

Woila!

The brushes look OK. I think.

So does the rotor (but picture too lagre, forum says)

But here is something wrong. The magnets seems to have came loose...??? I would expect them to be evenly distributed around? (The worlds best car in the back ground )

Still waiting for the new starter motor, but shuld be close now. A week after leaving Italy, it showed up in customs. Probably been sitting in a container for a while. I expect it to arrive tomorrow.

 

[grizztracks]

Same old story with those magnets. I've seen it way to many times.

 

[cannondale27]

Same old story with those magnets. I've seen it way to many times.

Yup.

 

[FrodeS]

I’ve read about them several times. I find it a bit unnecessary making the motors im such a way the magnets come loose. Shuld not be too hard to avoid.
I tested the motor prior to opening it. This time from a power supply. It threw a spark before reporting error. I didn’t expect it to be strong enough to run the motor, but there shuld be at least some movement. Still nothing.

 

[cannondale27]

I’ve read about them several times. I find it a bit unnecessary making the motors im such a way the magnets come loose. Shuld not be too hard to avoid.
I tested the motor prior to opening it. This time from a power supply. It threw a spark before reporting error. I didn’t expect it to be strong enough to run the motor, but there shuld be at least some movement. Still nothing.

Yes just bad glue or poor prep.

 

[grizztracks]

Or excessive heat...... Better adhesion using a higher temperature glue would be a start although this also could be a thermal expansion problem between the materials being used. The magnets are installed individually so if one slips the starter fails but if all the magnets were locked together with spacers between them they would be stronger because they all would have to move for it to fail. Even having divider tabs built into the housing would help. My Viper starter is acting up and if it ends up being the magnets I might fill the spacing with a high temperature epoxy.

 

[FrodeS]

Fingers crossed it will last for a while now. Replacing the starter turned out to be an "ok" job. It is no problem to do alone, using a couple of ratchet straps to tilt the motor.

I am so thankfull for all the help I've got in this thread, and all previous posts, making me able to do this my self. The new starter was a total of approx USD 270. I was quoted USD 1800 (!) for the job + new starter. At that kind of money, I'd rather part it out.

Before going any were, I need to add some coolant. It has green coolant on it now, I only have blue on the shelf. Not sure if they are safe to mix. The reason for the missing coolant, is because I removed the bottom coolant hose to get better access to the starter. It might be possible to replace it without removing the coolant hose, but there is no reason. The damage mentioned earlier also caused some damage to this hose, that I was now able to repair before it developed further.

Is the coolant system self bleading?

The overhauled starter relay works, at least for now, sitting in a "warm" garage.

Tada:

BTW. I reset the trip counter when I bought this machine. It is in KM, and this is how far I got until the 2nd breakdown. That is an average of 40 km for each breakdown. I hope I can improve on that

 

[cannondale27]

Right on! Well done!

 

[FrodeS]

My new relay arrived today. It is a cheap chineese one. The look and feel of it does not make me want to install it. Feels like crap. Not sure if I shuld install it, crack it open to have a look, or just keep it as a spare. The original one works great after I overhauled it. So far.

 

[03RX1-ER-LE]

My new relay arrived today. It is a cheap chineese one. The look and feel of it does not make me want to install it. Feels like crap. Not sure if I shuld install it, crack it open to have a look, or just keep it as a spare. The original one works great after I overhauled it. So far.

I would leave the Yamaha one on, throw the China one in tool kit.

 

[Mooseman]

I found the CCC relay looked exactly like the original. I even thought it was made by the same manufacturer as the original. After two burned out starters, I say not. I should do an autopsy of my original and the CCC relays and compare. Be extra weary of the cheap one if you ever have to use it and make sure you have a light that is readily visible (at gauge height, not at the ignition key switch).