Team Primary on Winder secondary mocked up

[STAIN]

This may not be the thread for this but here are the rollers

They have a shoulder on one side as not to be forced out by the rotational force of the clutch. Also uses special washers.

 

[helix]

I've done a bunch of driven spring testing on my scale on the drill press with Cat secondary springs and the more popular Yamaha secondary springs, but don't have a TPI orange spring to test, if someone wanted to bring or send one over I could scale it. Just what I've seen though with large Dia. wire on these secondary springs they get seriously heavy on the big end as they wrap up on top. Can't start with much wrap initially on the large wire heavy springs.

Hi Mike,
I know it may not be relative to what you are doing here, but it should be noted that while you are indeed correct that larger wire diameter size does increase torsion...it has to be noted that that statement is only true if exactly the same number of coils are used....even a little more wire...even half a coil or .9 of a coil makes a significant drop in the torsion as it rotates.
It does depend on the number of coils used.

if you have for instance, a .207 wire with exactly 4 coils, it is similar to .225 with 4.86 coils. adding more wire ( more coil) lessens the torsion . Another example is the stock secondary spring with the biggest .235 wire...those ones they needed a lot more ( 5.5) coils to keep the pressure from going too high on torsion.

The evidence of this is in your noted pressure tests there that you have done with the scale ( nice job by the way!).
...but as you have noted, when you turned up the black /orange spring it brought the numbers up 10 or 15 lbs, ..which would put it very close to the numbers of the EPI purple. ( actually less as it twists becaus eof more coils)

I know that it is not really relative to what you need here because you are using cat springs and probably need to because of the overdrive you have cut in the clutch, and you also want much more side pressure for what you are doing and the cat springs will be better to offer more of that.

.... but just me being me about the spring design thing.

 

[KnappAttack]

So heres my $.02, the stationary is and has always been hotter on every four-stroke I've ever run. I don't think you will ever change that fact. The shaft and stationary are bolted to a hot engine running 250F oil and 190F water thru it. There is much better "cooling" effect of the movable due to the fan effect of the towers and added aluminum mass whipping around at 5000-9000 RPM thru the cooler air in its vicinity.

Only way to cool down the stationary is to get some cooling air to it. I also believe the "WAI" intakes everyone wants to run is robbing air for the engine, that should be going to the stationary...

 

[helix]

Also the new black orange i received says to wrap at 6/2

Thanks

The production batch for the latest version of black orange had a slight change in hook tang position ( very slight, it looks the same at first glance and hard to see, but the slight difference makes it this way for setting. The 6-2 setting on the newest version is exactly same torsion as 61 on the original.

You cant always compare the standard type yamaha torsion settings when using cat....because the tang location is WAY different, ...and it is not relative in the respect to ..."adding ten degrees" when comparing one type like cat to another type like yamah.

Thats why mike is testing them how he it...it is the real deal. It doesnt really matter anything else for all those numbers, the clutch being pressed together in the actual situation tells you exactly the resistance to shift of the belt all the way through....noe of the rest matters if you have the time to do this his way. It is a very good demonstration.

Also as he has stated, helix angle can even be thrown in the mix here if you had some testing data to use with it to correlate. But a shallower (longer) helix ramp will also drive up pressure and change this.

 

[KnappAttack]

Hi Mike,
I know it may not be relative to what you are doing here, but it should be noted that while you are indeed correct that larger wire diameter size does increase torsion...it has to be noted that that statement is only true if exactly the same number of coils are used....even a little more wire...even half a coil or .9 of a coil makes a significant drop in the torsion as it rotates.
It does depend on the number of coils used.

if you have for instance, a .207 wire with exactly 4 coils, it is similar to .225 with 4.86 coils. adding more wire ( more coil) lessens the torsion . Another example is the stock secondary spring with the biggest .235 wire...those ones they needed a lot more ( 5.5) coils to keep the pressure from going too high on torsion.

The evidence of this is in your noted pressure tests there that you have done with the scale ( nice job by the way!).
...but as you have noted, when you turned up the black /orange spring it brought the numbers up 10 or 15 lbs, ..which would put it very close to the numbers of the EPI purple. ( actually less as it twists becaus eof more coils)

I know that it is not really relative to what you need here because you are using cat springs and probably need to because of the overdrive you have cut in the clutch, and you also want much more side pressure for what you are doing and the cat springs will be better to offer more of that.

.... but just me being me about the spring design thing.

Correct, Thanks for adding this excellent information Dale. All good stuff.

 

[helix]

Hey Mike, it may also be worth noting that for this application of cat secondary springs on this vehicle...maybe do not twist more than necessary and try to une with somewhat normal torsion twist settings.

3 cyl 4 strokes seem to have some breakages now and then in small wire torsion if twisted too far.
I have heard of some 998 cats that twist the torsion now and then ( not a lot, but sometimes happens) too much...and can break springs if turned too far. With only 4 coils of 207 wire to spread the load over it does increase stress on the spring if you wind it too tight.

We have recently been hearing a ton of 900 turbo skidoos breaking the factory torsion secondary springs. A lot of people ordering heavier ones.

As you probably remember from your 1200 skidoo...they were well known to break the torsion springs. Skidoo made 4 versions of OEM springs and although they got better, they still had troubles and many clutch kits like Cudney, etc....they switched to compression springs for 3 cyl applications because of it.

Right now it is happening big time on the 900 turbos ( easy to research).

I guess I'm just stating it because it is a relative current event on a similar subject. But I have heard of it now and then on green snopro conversions on the 998 cats. I think it only happens when people get wound too tight and bouncing on drifts etc from ones I've spoke to, .....it is just related to torsion twist and worth noting as you test.

Carry on. Good info here. Will be interested to see how this all goes for you. The tight belt and overdrive could be a nice deal if it works out.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

So heres my $.02, the stationary is and has always been hotter on every four-stroke I've ever run. I don't think you will ever change that fact. The shaft and stationary are bolted to a hot engine running 250F oil and 190F water thru it. There is much better "cooling" effect of the movable due to the fan effect of the towers and added aluminum mass whipping around at 5000-9000 RPM thru the cooler air in its vicinity.

Only way to cool down the stationary is to get some cooling air to it. I also believe the "WAI" intakes everyone wants to run is robbing air for the engine, that should be going to the stationary...

Been working on my intake this week. WAI out and CAI in. Colder temps this winter have helped in general though as shown on AITs.

Great info here Mike, as always.

Dan

 

[sideshowBob]

Any updates on the Team setup?

 

[KnappAttack]

Any updates on the Team setup?

Yes, Had it out yesterday on the lake. We all know lake running is not the same as a trail.

On 290 tune, pulling 84.4 G Dalton QA-2 76G weights fully loaded with 1/2" in tip and 1.5" behind that in arms in with Dalton White Bronze in primary. Secondary setup I tried a few combos. Best I found with my 22/41 gearing was White Dalton Cat torsion at 0-1 with 39/35. For trail I think I'd still use a 35 however, it was slightly slower using the 35 but responds better and would be better in snow or trail conditions. Cat 104 belt ran 9000 RPM and slipped to badly up top. Dayco XTX seemed to work well however up top.

Nice quiet clutch setup. That said, Its off today and I'm going back to the rattling bucket of crap Winder clutch and the 8DN. I just don't like the Higher engagement of the Team and I'm not quite sure the performance is where I'd like it to be. Got a trip coming up and going back to what I feel is a faster setup on the Yamaha primary and the 8DN that I feel more comfortable with. I feel I was overgeared with the 22/41 for the Team as well. It liked to slip down low and you could smell belt as it was engaging and moving around from takeoff. Same with my buddies Cat 9000 who was geared at 24/50. Now I see why Cat gears them so low like that.

 

[NYTurbo]

Be nice if one could get the Team down to 3000 - 3500 engagement . White/Bronze seems like lightest spring.

 

[rnusr01]

Been working on my intake this week. WAI out and CAI in. Colder temps this winter have helped in general though as shown on AITs.

Great info here Mike, as always.

Dan

Hi Dan,

I am working on a revised setup as well, fun project.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Mike, I must say that going back to stock 21/41 gearing this yr for trails really helped alot overall.

Keep up good work
Dan

 

[Big_Phil]

Don't be afraid, but be ready to run more weight, and thats going to mean less roller life on the Yamaha too I bet.

this is pretty much the only downfall of giant springs out back. Ive always ran a big rear spring in my doos because i love backshift. So now someone needs to come out with a bulletproof set of rollers with bushing material made from unobtanium.

I have had good luck with the 15.5 mm yamaha rollers from a viper clutch. 2000kms now with 81 gram STMs. The stock 14.5mm rollers used to push the bushings out about every 1000kms.

 

[helix]

I believe, if I remember correctly, that my 2005 Rx1 had 15mm rollers for that model year ( not 15.5 like they went to later) it was only that year I believe. The first year of monoshock rear suspension.
The 15mm may be an option.

 

[ClutchMaster]

Yes, Had it out yesterday on the lake. We all know lake running is not the same as a trail.

On 290 tune, pulling 84.4 G Dalton QA-2 76G weights fully loaded with 1/2" in tip and 1.5" behind that in arms in with Dalton White Bronze in primary. Secondary setup I tried a few combos. Best I found with my 22/41 gearing was White Dalton Cat torsion at 0-1 with 39/35. For trail I think I'd still use a 35 however, it was slightly slower using the 35 but responds better and would be better in snow or trail conditions. Cat 104 belt ran 9000 RPM and slipped to badly up top. Dayco XTX seemed to work well however up top.

Nice quiet clutch setup. That said, Its off today and I'm going back to the rattling bucket of crap Winder clutch and the 8DN. I just don't like the Higher engagement of the Team and I'm not quite sure the performance is where I'd like it to be. Got a trip coming up and going back to what I feel is a faster setup on the Yamaha primary and the 8DN that I feel more comfortable with. I feel I was overgeared with the 22/41 for the Team as well. It liked to slip down low and you could smell belt as it was engaging and moving around from takeoff. Same with my buddies Cat 9000 who was geared at 24/50. Now I see why Cat gears them so low like that.

You have to shim the spider on those clutches. If you don’t they will smoke the belts at low speeds especially coming out of corners and nailing it or hole shot racing.