Team Primary on Winder secondary mocked up

[johan]

On the older F1100t cats they had this same issue, you had to shim the spider on tuned sleds to prevent the slipping.

Or running smaller belt, can be why I don't see or feel any slip.

 

[Richard Hodgins]

Anybody else running the Team primary with Yamaha secondary? The cracking of primaries seem to be related to the sharp lip which can be machined to a round radius on the movable sheave. Am interested to potentially try this out since I have a brand new one sitting on the shelf and dont like the yamaha rattle (coming from a CAT 998 that was quiet in comparison to now yamaha clutches).

 

[Doowithblue]

Anytime i ask this question i get told it wont work. Interested in the new style team primary myself. I get that many run the old apex clutch but dare to be different lol.

 

[Turboflash]

Not enough time yet on new Cat ADAPT primary to know how it will work and last. Time will tell.

One thing I like about Team primary is they seem to love being mounted to 998. They just last and last. They don't wear out buttons, rollers, bushings, etc. I've seen TCats with over 7,500 miles on original Team primary and it's still tight. Spiders are tight, rollers look like new, weights look new, rollers look new.
I've machined that radius on about 10 Team clutches now and none have cracked and most are on sleds with big tunes and lots of traction. Some even have done lots of anti-lag launches.

 

[Richard Hodgins]

Not enough time yet on new Cat ADAPT primary to know how it will work and last. Time will tell.

One thing I like about Team primary is they seem to love being mounted to 998. They just last and last. They don't wear out buttons, rollers, bushings, etc. I've seen TCats with over 7,500 miles on original Team primary and it's still tight. Spiders are tight, rollers look like new, weights look new, rollers look new.
I've machined that radius on about 10 Team clutches now and none have cracked and most are on sleds with big tunes and lots of traction. Some even have done lots of anti-lag launches.

I am asking about the older TEAM primary, not the new ADAPT. I saw your posts on machining the radius which is why I'm contemplating using my brand new TEAM primary that I have with the yamaha secondary. Just wondering if anyone has run this besides Mike who went to an RX-1 clutch.

 

[1049triple]

Turboflash how is the belt lasting with the Team on your friends sleds?
Mine was just too tight, overheating expensive belts and giving poor clutch response. Thats why I swaped to Yamaha clutch on my 9000 and do not regret one bit.

 

[STAIN]

Turboflash how is the belt lasting with the Team on your friends sleds?
Mine was just too tight, overheating expensive belts and giving poor clutch response. Thats why I swaped to Yamaha clutch on my 9000 and do not regret one bit.

The belt was too tight? The bearing on the primary clutch on the Cat Team clutch makes it so the belts have almost no deflection. This should not be the cause of the belt getting hot as the belt rides on the bearing.
I believe the ability of the Team to run such a tight belt contributes to some of the throttle response on those sleds.
I have seen belts last thousands of miles on T-cats with proper clutch set up

 

[1049triple]

No sorry, I mean the clutch was too tight in the sliders. Having hard time just to close the clutch without any spring on it.

 

[Turboflash]

Belt life is great. Most/all new clutches are tight as far as spider in movable. Just ride some miles and they run in fine.
The TCats are all running XS827 belts. Not uncommon for them to run 1500+ miles and guys change them just because.

 

[1049triple]

I ran the Team for 3000km before switching. Original 220$ Cat belts were exploding at 1500km each. Both belt blowed at part throttle with excessive heat. Beeing used to run 120$ Yamaha belts that last forever, that dosent make sens for me. After put the Yamaha clutch I must say that I exploded old 8DN and 8JP for a total of 3. Now run the Yamaha clutchs and Ultimax 825 and still on the first one after 4000km. I feel the power delivery better and I like the easier and fast adjustment of torsion on the Yamaha secondary.

 

[Turboflash]

IMO, Cat belts NFG. I can blow one in up in minutes on big tune. Timken XS have been the answer. Very tough.
I run an IR belt temp gage. On big tunes, belt temps for fast trail riding 135-145 degF. On long lake pulls (125 MPH+) after about a mile belt temp creeps up to 175. Still not close to death for XS belt. Timken engineer told me let off if you see 225. Never going to get that high. My group has tried every belt out there (except for GBoost). XS has been most durable, coolest running. BTW- 22/37 gearing on Cat heats up belt faster and generally belt temps are 10 degF higher. Most of the sleds have extra venting too. Make sure offset is exactly right.

 

[1049triple]

Really good info. Just to add, the Cat belt I blew was with stock tune 141 x 1.75 back country track and very low 22/48 gearing. Now I run MS17 header tune, 21/41 with a 144 Challenger cut down to 1.5".

 

[Yamarus]

I'm going to install the epi ACSS-5 purple for driving in deep snow. What values should I set? I'm trying to make 3-3 but I can't twist it very tight.

 

[Srxspec]

3-3 on the EPI purple is way to much twist. It should be installed at 0-1.

 

[Turboflash]

Well it can be done and rather nicely I might add. Just as I figured, the driven needs spaced out more than the Yamaha primary for the 1.5" Cat belt and wider Team stationary sheave, and either the helix or hub will need machined on the secondary to allow more secondary helix/movable travel allowing the wider Cat belt the extra width it needs. Also will need a spring with less coils to prevent spring bind in that secondary too. I will be using Cat secondary springs in the Winder driven so all will be fine for that either way.

For mockup I added .062" washers behind a DALTON helix, this just gives the secondary/helix just enough extra travel for the wider belt when thru OD at rest and not under power. I wouldn't run it this way with shims as the rollers don't even touch the helix at all, but for mockup its fine.

Angle on both the 8JP and the Cat 104 belt both used is the same as per my angle finder. The Yamaha 8JP runs at 7.95" on the Yamaha Primary and the 104 rides at 8.375" on the Cat/Team Primary, both at full OD. Yamaha clutch weighs #10 and the Team is just shy of #12. IMO the 998 needs a heavier drive clutch for flywheel effect, maybe thats why the Team makes no noise like the rattling box of bolts Yamaha drive clutch, I don't know. For certain the Team is clearanced tighter on the buttons, has no play on the rollers and weights, and is cushioned much better than the Yamaha primary with its weight bolts.

I set offset at full OD for now and the nice part is you don't have to worry about shimming the belt deflection as it will tighten the belt right up for zero deflection using the bearing on the team primary as it does on the Cat. So zero worry about deflection at idle which will be nice.

Cons? Well slightly higher belt costs, but can use Carlisle XS 827 Cat belt which is working so very well for the Cat guys. Need to buy all new weights, springs, and another new puller.

Pros, don't know for certain as I haven't run it yet, but presumed pros for certain are fiddle string tight belt deflection. Wider belt has more shift ratio from low to high & stonger tensile strength on wider belt. Will mean lower takeoff gear at start and more OD at finish. Wider rollers by 50% SHOULD mean more roller life vs. Yamaha primary. NO clutch rattle on the Team vs the Yamaha. Don't have to machine the secondary, just add an actual bit of shim to align properly.

Is it for everyone? No, I don't even know if they'll be any gains to be had, but I like to try everything for myself. I know the rollers are not lasting on the Yamaha clutch and it rattles like a SOB which I hate. I'm not even certain that I will run it yet, but I at least know it will work if I want to run it.

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I've seen lots of TCats (w big tunes too) w Team primaries with over 8,000+ miles and the Team primary is still tight, no bushing wear, no noise, center brg still good. Almost like new. They last & last. BUT, they do crack eventually. I always wondered if the aluminum casting alloy was changed to something better, if that problem would go away.