Interesting clutch stuff, Viper clutches & floating secondary

[Big_Phil]

Phil,did you keep same ramps in for the 825 belt vrs the 8jp stocker? Or have to reduce the amount of weight for that belt?

I left everything the same, and RPM seems to be the same as the 8jp on the 825 belt, I was turning 8900 on the 270 tune this week, but it was very cold out, -15C highs during the day. I assume it will rev a bit less in normal temperatures. Theres no snow within hours of me this season so far, so I havent really had a chance to test properly.

 

[snowbeast]

I left everything the same, and RPM seems to be the same as the 8jp on the 825 belt, I was turning 8900 on the 270 tune this week, but it was very cold out, -15C highs during the day. I assume it will rev a bit less in normal temperatures. Theres no snow within hours of me this season so far, so I havent really had a chance to test properly.

Thanks,yes I completely understand the lack of Cold/Snow that we should already have. Best of luck to you. Pete

 

[Fast]

Although the Advant-Edge helix is cut on the hub for OD fine, the Yamaha white spring still coil binds before the drive clutch brings the belt fully to the top set at 60*. I had to add .060" shims under the helix, (which I hate doing) to keep that combo from coil binding completely under the Advant-Edge.

Mike, did you try taking .050" off the secondary and another .050" off the helix to fix the coil bind issue?

 

[KnappAttack]

Mike, did you try taking .050" off the secondary and another .050" off the helix to fix the coil bind issue?

No.
Using the Dalton or Advant-Edge aftermarket helixs takes care of hub bind, but does not take care of the spring bind. Some springs bind right at the end of travel, some springs bind hard on the Viper secondary. Just because the spring doesn't not bind in the Winder secondary doesn't mean it will not bind in the Viper secondary. What I see is the spring bind is worse on the Viper secondary as its a tighter space on it vs the Winder.

I've been using the Dalton Red secondary spring which does not bind, or lately the Version 1 Dalton bl/og and keeping it at 65* wrap or under. at 70* it binds too. Otherwise most other springs require shims under the helix posts to prevent coil bind before full shift on the primary.

 

[twyztid]

No.
Using the Dalton or Advant-Edge aftermarket helixs takes care of hub bind, but does not take care of the spring bind. Some springs bind right at the end of travel, some springs bind hard on the Viper secondary. Just because the spring doesn't not bind in the Winder secondary doesn't mean it will not bind in the Viper secondary. What I see is the spring bind is worse on the Viper secondary as its a tighter space on it vs the Winder.

I've been using the Dalton Red secondary spring which does not bind, or lately the Version 1 Dalton bl/og and keeping it at 65* wrap or under. at 70* it binds too. Otherwise most other springs require shims under the helix posts to prevent coil bind before full shift on the primary.

Are you using actual 8mm ID x 1.5mm (.060") shims or just finding some 8mm or 5/16 washers that are all 0.060" thickness and using those?

 

[KnappAttack]

5/16 washers tweaked to .060". But I'd rather not use any shims if I don't have to. Right now, the Dalton red needs none, nor the Dalton bl/og if kept under 65*.

 

[rxwhopper]

i wish someone would do testing with the viper secondary and stock winder clutch. to save belts i think will just need the secondary.seems to be working for a few of my friends but we dont get the miles and abuse you guys put on them. but most with the roller out here that i ride with cant get 500 km out of a belt. mine included until i went viper secondary. but i did primary at same time.

 

[STAIN]

Mike, I see that you went back to the Winder stock clutch's with an XS825. Care to say why?

 

[KnappAttack]

Mike, I see that you went back to the Winder stock clutch's with an XS825. Care to say why?

I had to answer my own question to see if the gains I was seeing was the belt, the clutches or both combined, and as I suspected, the big gain appears to be the XS belt and its ability to grip better.

I must say though, both sets of clutches are able to keep temps low as long as both are running light secondary pressures. So I have a great handle on the XS belt now with either setup. Both setups perform very close to one another. I believe either one to be good now that I've gone to the XS belt. Both grip that XS belt like crazy, a far cry from the Yamaha belts I struggled with in the past keeping a hold on the belt down low and up top.

 

[STAIN]

What secondary spring did you end up with in the stock secondary? Do you feel that the trail performance is as good with the light weights? Not talking top speed or lake running but trail riding, pull coming out of corners and such.
I ask because I have been tuning to a lighter secondary also but feel I may have lost some acceleration in trail situations, coming out of corners. The engine spins the correct RPM but the acceleration seems to be lacking. I have one other thing to check before changing any more clutching.

 

[KnappAttack]

What secondary spring did you end up with in the stock secondary? Do you feel that the trail performance is as good with the light weights? Not talking top speed or lake running but trail riding, pull coming out of corners and such.
I ask because I have been tuning to a lighter secondary also but feel I may have lost some acceleration in trail situations, coming out of corners. The engine spins the correct RPM but the acceleration seems to be lacking. I have one other thing to check before changing any more clutching.

Right now I'm using the stock Yellow helix in the winder secondary at 3&3 on the 35 helix. That is a start of 125# on scale and a 265# finish right before coil bind and end of travel, using Hi-Torque rollers.

I find the acceleration better than what I had been seeing with heavier weight, stiffer springs and Yamaha belts. Its really come to life actually now that I've found the XS belt and have the ability to grip the belt properly without trying to mechanically pinch the belt with all the super heavy stuff. I couldn't be happier at the moment. The only thing that can take me off the wave I'm riding is if it beats up the primary rollers again, which I'm hoping it doesn't. They are actually looking real good on both sets of clutches right now. I feel very confident right now in either set of clutches or any combination of any of them together.

 

[Byam]

.020" in belt width was equal to 2% more OD in my old Cats as I recall. It was certainly nice seeing what I had with the on-board computer in regards to engine and jackshaft RPM. With the onboard data acquisition computer you could easily see the amount of OD you were getting without guessing. So .030" I'd say you would get another 3% or in that ballpark. Just make darn sure the secondary will go that far open. I think you are beyond using the 8JP length belts here, you would do yourself a favor going to the longer 8DN belt length if you are going to do that added OD in the primary. The reason is, using the stock primary on the 8JP length belt it is already using all available secondary travel in the stock sheaves, so its going to need a longer belt and start higher in the secondary to keep from running out of travel there. If you try to push it using 8jp lengths, the belt will run off the bottom of the angle on the secondary, and you do not want the cogs below the angle on the sheaves at all, severe slippage and bad things will occur.

Can you tell I've been down this road before a time or two?

M Knapp.
THOMAS had to see it for himself...lol

Belt is too short. Paooooowwww
I will try back whit xs805

 

[KnappAttack]

M Knapp.
THOMAS had to see it for himself...lol

Belt is too short. Paooooowwww
I will try back whit xs805

Yep, been there done that like I said.

XS805 should take care of that, and that is exactly the reason NOT to machine for O.D. in the primary clutch boys and girls. Want more speed just put a bigger gear in for it. I've tested this till I was blue in the face and added ratio gains nothing in ET or speed. Gearing will accomplish more than added ratio from low to high in the clutches.

 

[Big_Phil]

Thanks,yes I completely understand the lack of Cold/Snow that we should already have. Best of luck to you. Pete

I had to take 4 grams off the primary and maybe still more. Up to 1700 kms of thrashing on the xs825 now, belt still looks and performs great. Clutches are spotless

 

[rtx moose]

so i blew my first belt after 500 miles and the clutches were really hot when it happened..so when i went to open up the secondary to get the new belt on it was REALLY hard to push open...is this normal?