The Clutch Rabbit Hole

[Derailed]

Dalton black/red

I think that’s a lighter spring than factory right? I could have this totally backwards but wouldn’t a heavier spring counteract the heavier weights? So maybe a black/bronze spring would make the 70g better with a stock setup or ecotrail?

Thanks

 

[74Nitro]

Are you using their rollers with the brass bushings?

Yes, and they are wider so they use the thinner nylon washers like the older clutch had.

 

[74Nitro]

Question - Does anyone have experience with the Dalton 70g adjustable weights on a stock machine or the TD Ecotrail tune? (129” track, heavy rider)

I see that 66g weights are recommended for that power level but I’d like to upgrade later to powertrail or max 16 maybe and would rather not have to purchase more weights.

2nd question: Could this be balanced out with a different primary spring? Any suggestions there would be appreciated.

A little more background for those interested:
It’s the first time I’ve touched the clutches (other than changing belts) on my 2017 Sidewinder with 9’200km on it. Of course I had the flat spot secondary rollers and 1 primary roller that wouldn’t roll which wore the weight down. The first few seasons I never blew any belts but the last couple I started snapping new belts (always running 8JP) when off and back on throttle. I checked my offset and it was 59 but I’m feeling the flat spot secondary had a lot to do with this (pic attached).

My plan is to get the Turbo dynamics aggressive trail clutch kit with the 70g Dalton weights and the multi-map tuner this season and run everything else stock or eco trail, next season I may look at a pipe etc and go closed loop but for now I’d like to see if I can get away with that setup. Beats buying a new sled at this point


I’m up for any advice on the topic, maybe re-think this all together and run an Apex clutch?

Thanks,

Those 70G weights will be fine with ecotrail. My personal experience was that the next weight heavier was too much.

 

[WinderFab]

I think that’s a lighter spring than factory right? I could have this totally backwards but wouldn’t a heavier spring counteract the heavier weights? So maybe a black/bronze spring would make the 70g better with a stock setup or ecotrail?

View attachment 174697
Thanks

Yes lighter preload, helps lower engagement. I wouldn’t know about the effect of the black/bronze or a heavier spring.

 

[justinator]

I think that’s a lighter spring than factory right? I could have this totally backwards but wouldn’t a heavier spring counteract the heavier weights? So maybe a black/bronze spring would make the 70g better with a stock setup or ecotrail?

View attachment 174697
Thanks

The higher finish rate on a spring increases upper rpms as it takes more clutch weight to overcome. Dalton measured the factory spring at 115 so the black red is a little heavier on the finish but not a whole lot. The preload is lower so engagement will be lower. It is a better spring choice then the factory sidewinder spring as that spring is kinda long and some have reported them breaking. Dalton spring will be of better quality and easier to install being shorter. I personally did not care for the engagement of the black bronze spring...... although close on paper to factory spring I found it engaged a little higher than it should have and was a bit snappy. Your running a fine line with weight choice with stock or tuned and it will come down to belt choice. If your right on the edge I prefer to be on the next lower base weight so you have some adjustability in both directions

 

[Derailed]

The higher finish rate on a spring increases upper rpms as it takes more clutch weight to overcome. Dalton measured the factory spring at 115 so the black red is a little heavier on the finish but not a whole lot. The preload is lower so engagement will be lower. It is a better spring choice then the factory sidewinder spring as that spring is kinda long and some have reported them breaking. Dalton spring will be of better quality and easier to install being shorter.

Ok thanks for clearing that up. This is why I’m saying it’s a bit of a rabbit hole to learn this stuff. So far my take away is all I really need to understand:
-The amount of weight, balance of weight and also shape of weight in primary along with the roller size/type.
-primary spring preload and rate
-secondary helix angle
-secondary spring rate and installation angle
- belt size and type

Yet somehow it was still faster than most sleds 10 years ago even with those flat spots lol

 

[Fleecer]

Well I own and have tested every weight Dalton makes....along with a shelf full of helixes and springs. Here are my opinions:

Dalton QAY Weights are my favorite, but a stock sled with QAY 70 weights will not work well. They will tie it up the motor too much and it will be low on rpm. Sled will run and get you from point A to point B, but will be a pig and everyone will pass you.

In order to be successful in clutching, some of the variables need to be constant. Otherwise you will chase your tail in frustration. Case in point, the 8jp belt MIGHT be OK on a stock sled, but once you decide to tune it, boomerang every 8jp you own into the woods and go to an Ultimax XS825. The XS slips less, is stronger, is cleaner, and is more consistent. NOBODY here has been able to get an 8jp to work better than an XS on a tuned Winder. I cringe when I read the fools on spacebook claiming the 8jp is the best belt.

The XS belt pulls 3-400 rpm less than the 8jp because it slips less. Less slip means less heat and more power to the ground. The redline belt pulls 100 rpm less than an XS. It has a nice price point, but is not as tough.

You wanna run big power? You wanna run 150mph on a groomed trail on snow? You wanna hold it 2 miles WFO in the slush? If you answered "Yes" to any of these questions .. well you're gonna need a GBOOST belt. From what I gather, this is not what you're after......so we won't get off topic. My opinion, go to the XS belt and stay there.

TD Ecotrail with stock muffler and XS belt can turn QAY 70G weights, but it takes everything. This is with Yamaha Secondary rollers or Cat Torlon rollers. You claim you're a heavy guy, hence I fear warm weather/soft conditions will will bring low rpms. If you put Hi-torque rollers in the secondary, you will turn even lower rpm.

Based on that, I would go 66g Daltons. Keep in mind you can add 7g to these weights for a total of 73g if need be. Even if you upgraded next year to MS16 SM or Power trail with performance muffler you could still easily utilize these weights.

To top things off, I would go Yamaha blue/brown/blue primary spring in front clutch. In the secondary, I would go Dalton black/orange spring with straight 35 helix wrapped to 80 degrees. If you're heavy and running a lot of studs, go to 90 degrees of wrap.

Lastly, in my opinion, the best best bang for the buck for rollers are the Thundershift 14.8 mm rollers. The gforce 15mn rollers will still wear oval and are pricier.

Hope this helps......and welcome to the jungle!!

 

[Derailed]

HUGE help thanks! I do see what you’re saying in regard to controlling the variables, since I’m needing to replace most components of both clutches that’s where I start looking for a proven combo at least to set a baseline. I appreciate you taking the time to consider the details of my setup

 

[74Nitro]

Well I own and have tested every weight Dalton makes....along with a shelf full of helixes and springs. Here are my opinions:

Dalton QAY Weights are my favorite, but a stock sled with QAY 70 weights will not work well. They will tie it up the motor too much and it will be low on rpm. Sled will run and get you from point A to point B, but will be a pig and everyone will pass you.

In order to be successful in clutching, some of the variables need to be constant. Otherwise you will chase your tail in frustration. Case in point, the 8jp belt MIGHT be OK on a stock sled, but once you decide to tune it, boomerang every 8jp you own into the woods and go to an Ultimax XS825. The XS slips less, is stronger, is cleaner, and is more consistent. NOBODY here has been able to get an 8jp to work better than an XS on a tuned Winder. I cringe when I read the fools on spacebook claiming the 8jp is the best belt.

The XS belt pulls 3-400 rpm less than the 8jp because it slips less. Less slip means less heat and more power to the ground. The redline belt pulls 100 rpm less than an XS. It has a nice price point, but is not as tough.

You wanna run big power? You wanna run 150mph on a groomed trail on snow? You wanna hold it 2 miles WFO in the slush? If you answered "Yes" to any of these questions .. well you're gonna need a GBOOST belt. From what I gather, this is not what you're after......so we won't get off topic. My opinion, go to the XS belt and stay there.

TD Ecotrail with stock muffler and XS belt can turn QAY 70G weights, but it takes everything. This is with Yamaha Secondary rollers or Cat Torlon rollers. You claim you're a heavy guy, hence I fear warm weather/soft conditions will will bring low rpms. If you put Hi-torque rollers in the secondary, you will turn even lower rpm.

Based on that, I would go 66g Daltons. Keep in mind you can add 7g to these weights for a total of 73g if need be. Even if you upgraded next year to MS16 SM or Power trail with performance muffler you could still easily utilize these weights.

To top things off, I would go Yamaha blue/brown/blue primary spring in front clutch. In the secondary, I would go Dalton black/orange spring with straight 35 helix wrapped to 80 degrees. If you're heavy and running a lot of studs, go to 90 degrees of wrap.

Lastly, in my opinion, the best best bang for the buck for rollers are the Thundershift 14.8 mm rollers. The gforce 15mn rollers will still wear oval and are pricier.

Hope this helps......and welcome to the jungle!!

Thundershift rollers the best Fleecer? Do they use the full width? I haven't put enough miles on the gforce yet for good feedback. The Yamaha rollers are very expensive.

 

[Fleecer]

My opinion, Yamaha 14.5mm rollers are best, but very pricey.

For the average trail rider, I think the Thundershift are a good option when comparing function and cost.

 

[DMCTurbo]

My opinion, Yamaha 14.5mm rollers are best, but very pricey.

For the average trail rider, I think the Thundershift are a good option when comparing function and cost.

Another good option and what I have been running for a couple seasons are Fett Brothers 14.5mm rollers with duralon bushings.

 

[74Nitro]

Another good option and what I have been running for a couple seasons are Fett Brothers 14.5mm rollers with duralon bushings.

I'd like to see Fett or Thunder offer their type of roller except wider like the gforce. I think that would be the best....?

 

[Derailed]

So in this case what it seems happened with the Yamaha roller is that the bushing worked its way out a little bit as you might be able to see in the pic and that causes it to bind up. I wasn’t able to roll it with my fingers at all. This caused about 0.006” to wear off the weight but I’ve checked the roller with a digital caliper and micrometer several times if it is out of round it isn’t by much more than 0.001”.

OD was 14.44mm btw, at over 5000 miles with zero maintenance. ID 9.22-9.24mm

 

[74Nitro]

So in this case what it seems happened with the Yamaha roller is that the bushing worked its way out a little bit as you might be able to see in the pic and that causes it to bind up. I wasn’t able to roll it with my fingers at all. This caused about 0.006” to wear off the weight but I’ve checked the roller with a digital caliper and micrometer several times if it is out of round it isn’t by much more than 0.001”.

OD was 14.44mm btw, at over 5000 miles with zero maintenance. ID 9.22-9.24mm
View attachment 174701

IMO, those bushings move just due to the harmonics and back and forth forces inherit in these clutches/engines.
Also, even though that roller is more difficult to spin, I think it would still be moving when the machine is operating. There is a great amount of force against that roller from the weight.
Also of note is that you will almost never see all the rollers and weights wear at the same pace. There is always one that fails first, or is more worn than the others. I believe that could be due to where the clutch happened to be located when is was put on the engine, which could be different every time.

 

[fxnytrortxkid]

Personally I would call thunder products and get their weights. They have rollers for primary and secondary also. Their weights can be tuned from stock to ms17 and probably 20 on same weight with the right options of bolt and washers to weight them. I started mine at stock, then eco trail ecu my buddy had then I put ms17 in mine and had clutches done, believe I was at 77-79g by time I was all dialed in. And more weight at heel would have helped me too.