The New Secondary Brain Child Is Done And Is Easy To Do

[blueironranger]

Hmmm, should be numbers in the spring pocket on the clutch, I know with the green spring that 40* at 1 clutch-3 cam had hardly any tension and 3-3 had quite a bit. You could try each hole and go by feel and mark them with punch marks.

 

[ATV PRO #11]

No, nothing anywhere mark wise.
I did try that route and could barely wrap it.
I looked down the helix 3 hole which lined up with hole in sheave (looking through helix) but no idea if that's right. Grrrrrr

 

[blueironranger]

usually the tips of the helix ramps will be past the mounting posts/sliders and you will need to twist the helix clockwise to get the the bolt holes to line up, that's the preload. The three holes for the spring on the clutch side are slightly offset from each other, the one that's furthest counter clockwise (and furthest from its relative slider puck) is the #3

 

[ATV PRO #11]

Ok awesome. Huge thanks!!! I sanded in area and found what looks like a 1 and other looks like a B (3). Hopefully testing shortly.

 

[ATV PRO #11]

Took two test rides.
Can absolutely tell the difference first ride!!
Conditions powdery on trail w/hardpack under and also have many deep snow runs.
Primary dn-10 with 4.5 in each hole. Gyg spring.
Secondary green spring.
Reverse engaged no problem.
I have the .05m shims under bolts.
Belt sits level or just above 1/8th. Was different every check. May pull washers out to have belt sit lower. Track was ever so slightly creeping on the stand. Move every two sec or so.

1st run wrap 3-3: 60*
Engagement was waaaay smoother 4400
Trail run. 11,300 spike to 10-10,5000 at 109km/h
Stayed there the entire way
Powder run 11,300 spike to 10,900 down to 10,500 at 90km/h
Temp with hand. 4 seconds till I had to pull off.

2nd run wrap 2-3: 50*
Engagement 4200
Trail run 11,500 spike to 10,900 at 114km/h
Powder 11,400 spike to 10,900 at 95km/h
Primary was def hotter, secondary 4sec.
I did, several times, get that slip sound when taking off from 5-10km/hr. Kinda that grab grind sound if that makes sense. Cachunk grind then go.

UPDATE:

3rd run wrap 1-6: 70*
Engagement 4000ish
Trail run 11300 to 11050 to 10900 at 118km/h
Powder 113000 to 10950 at 95ish (sun in eyes)
Got 5 seconds on prim and sec with hands.
Engine braking wasn't harsh.
I feel like I have my setting. Smooth engagement. Great power. Almost feels like I bolted an exhaust on. Can't believe how different it is.

Leads to a question to you guru's. At what degree wrap to you feel it's time to switch to the next spring. (Silver would be my next?)



Any suggestions

 

[ATV PRO #11]

Hmmmm, looking at hp/tq range chart I'm actually right in it.

 

[blueironranger]

I just noticed that the MTX has 15mm rollers in the primary VS 15.6mm in the rest of the Phazers, smaller rollers make the weights seem slightly heavier to the clutch which might account for your rpm being lower than mine. A slight amount of track creep on a stand is perfect IMO. Would personally try your stock spring in the primary and see what RPM it runs with the loaded 8dn-10's. The low speed thing your noticing is probably from the new higher engagement speed, my sled doesn't not like going under 10mph and heats up the primary pretty good if I'm stuck "creeping" through a town or pulling kids on a sled.

 

[ATV PRO #11]

Well I got another 50 Kms in.

HUGE thanks to UP, for posting this, all members posting and blueironranger/Mike for helping me along!! Srxtwins for setting me up with the secondary!!


Very happy with this mod so far.
Finally have a great range of power through trail, to powder, to big drifts ect. Seems well rounded through all of it. Never had that before. Veir off trail to powder/drifts and would just be so blah. Thankfully we got 5-6" yesterday and some nice winds to follow which made for some great al around testing close to the cave!!

 

[MikeWalters]

Took two test rides.

UPDATE:

3rd run wrap 1-6: 70*

I feel like I have my setting. Smooth engagement. Great power. Almost feels like I bolted an exhaust on. Can't believe how different it is.

Leads to a question to you guru's. At what degree wrap to you feel it's time to switch to the next spring. (Silver would be my next?)



Any suggestions

If it feels bang on then just leave it there! If you ever go back to Hindle exhaust or some other power adder you will likely end up needing to tune at that point, but probably in the primary IMO

 

[blueironranger]

I really feel the green spring is all we need to run in the secondary, if you look back the green spring was used in many sleds up to ~100-110hp engines and those had the harder compound 8DN belt, our 8gk is softer and has more grip. Silver maybe needed if your really swinging a monster powder track and do nothing but off-trail riding, actually a silver spring might not be bad to carry with and toss in for powder play as it would increase backshift and raise the RPMs a bit.

 

[ATV PRO #11]

Thanks guys. I may do some more tinkering with it. Went for another ride late last night.
Long runs, braking for roads and getting back on it to cross at 10-20km/h I'd get that little squal sound. But only that scenario. Played in deep stuff, off/on throttle no prob. It sure rips hard and pulls to speed so much better now tho

I may try the chrome muffler again. Header will need to much work/modification to fit properly in the phazer. It should hold up better packing wise, I believe they put steel wool instead of white stuff. Very happy so far with the gain making the clutching more efficient!!

 

[MikeWalters]

Thanks guys. I may do some more tinkering with it. Went for another ride late last night.
Long runs, braking for roads and getting back on it to cross at 10-20km/h I'd get that little squal sound. But only that scenario. Played in deep stuff, off/on throttle no prob. It sure rips hard and pulls to speed so much better now tho

I may try the chrome muffler again. Header will need to much work/modification to fit properly in the phazer. It should hold up better packing wise, I believe they put steel wool instead of white stuff. Very happy so far with the gain making the clutching more efficient!!

I found added response and smoothness by making sure the dust is blown out of primary and secondary, then checking secondary buttons (guide ramps I think they are called, helix sits on them) make sure they arent worn out, and polish the s**t out of the helix with aluminum polish. Mine had some grooving worn into it, so i gave it some light filing/sanding then polished and it became more responsive.

Guess it all depends on how many km are on your donor clutch. Mine may have been a little high in the milage department

 

[Voda2000]

Sorry I had meant to post sooner. Not sure you guys have seen this table of springs and settings for the secondary. http://www.totallyamaha.com/snowmobiles/aaTECH/drivespecs/secondarysprings.htm Just ignore the ones label Phazer, the other tables are for the YVX clutches.

Curtis, I'm surprised that the results you were getting are not more linear as you increased the preload but clutching can be a funny thing.

One thing to remember is that as you increase the preload you make the primary work harder to pull the belt through the secondary shelves. This slows down the shift. There is an optimal point for shifting. If you go too high you will start to loose efficiency and generate heat (probably over rev too), too low and the motor will shift too fast and bog. There is usually a reasonable range and the four strokes aren't as fussy as two strokes with this because of the larger power band. Someone please correct me if that's wrong.

I'm running 60* right now and it seems reasonable. I'm guessing with a green spring some where between 50* and 70* for most Phazers (with 80hp ish) will be about right.

One thing I know is that if you are over revving, with a resonable amount of preload, don't start increasing the preload to bring the revs down. You are just killing efficiency and probably wearing out belts. Add weight to the arms or a lighter primary spring.

The funny thing is there are a million ways with clutches get similarly results. For instance I'm going to try shimming my primary to see if I can get rid of a slight bog in take off. I could try a heavier spring or lighter arms and have s similar effect but there will be trade offs elsewhere.

 

[ATV PRO #11]

Mike. Doner has new buttons and was turned on a lathe to clean up faces. I did a 2000grit wet sand on helix faces and cleaned it up nice.

Andrew, I may test the silver spring. Was out today and put a fair 250 Kms in all conditions.
Took me awhile to get used to the sound of the motor being in the low 11, mid 10's.

Hard pack pulled great rpms 10700ish, still have slight slip, clack using brake to slow for stops.

Powder, 2-3' out by piniwa and unbelievable how it just picks up and floats. Ballences well shift wise jumping into powder, track bites and stays in the range. BUT, still a weird clack, slight slip sound low rpm getting back on it. Rpms in powder were 11,300 down to 11050. Seems to work best in powder.

Top speed, cruising speeds were down today but I did pull shims for belt height. No bog. When checking, I assume everything is settling in and belt was 1/16" below sheaves. So I'll put the new bolts in with .05's and see if it gets better. Hard to test at +2 and rained from white mouth all the way to Beausejour.

 

[MikeWalters]

I agree with Voda,

If the pull and backshifting feels good, tune with primary from there to get RPM to peak