Winder cuts out

[Noel]

I’m in the same damn boat still. I have 2 winders doing the same thing and I’ve tried a bunch of things to try and get it resolved. At first I thought it was the return line fitting. Drilled them both and they ran great for over 900 miles. Thought that was it until they did it again a few weeks ago and thought it was bad fuel. Purged all fuel and tried again. Not the problem. Then thought it may be a heat saturation thing and fuel was vapor locking in line and rail as they seemed to be acting up when temps were hovering close to freezing or just over. Ran them last night in 15-20* air, ran perfect other than the trails being rock hard due to a warm day and rain the day before and engine ran hotter than usual but still ran fine. Ran them again today and both ran like garbage and the temps were 15-22* again and trails were granulated but better than yesterday as engine temps were 172-176 consistently. I’ve tried various fuels, fuel additives such as octane booster, injector cleaner, k-100, stp gas treatment in case of water in tank, ethanol and non ethanol fuels etc. I have the updated elbow in the return line. My sled ran worse than hers and wouldn’t go over 35 mph without a loss of power and backfiring. It would backfire like a semi automatic rifle coming down hills while just engine braking and it would stall at just about every road crossing or junction. I’m about outnof patience with these things. Regretting selling the vipers as we put over 15k miles on those without an major issue. Only issue we had was the fuel pumps would break a wire but that is a free 20 min fix. I hate not being able to figure out something that’s inconsistent. You think you narrowed it down and then it gets debunked and I’m back to square one. No dealer has ever heard of the issue, no one on here or anywhere else knows what’s going on and the factory claims they are a perfect masterpiece with zero issues ever.

Mine is still at the dealers and as soon as i find out what they find will let everybody know , hopefully they find something.

 

[jonlafon1]

Any chance it idled like garbage? Does it run like it's searching for rpm. Like it's up and dow. At idle or stumble so to speak? Just thinking it's the roll over valve which is a major POS. One way to tell is start it up and with side panel off unscrew the oil fill plug and press your thumb over hole to seal it tight. Give it 5-10 seconds and release it. And PAY attention how it idles while doing this. If it hisses a fair amount of air out/ from pressure building and unable to release through POS VALVE. Then your valve is junk. Which most are. It just takes time to the pressure to ruin the oil tank gasket seal

 

[Noel]

Any chance it idled like garbage? Does it run like it's searching for rpm. Like it's up and dow. At idle or stumble so to speak? Just thinking it's the roll over valve which is a major POS. One way to tell is start it up and with side panel off unscrew the oil fill plug and press your thumb over hole to seal it tight. Give it 5-10 seconds and release it. And PAY attention how it idles while doing this. If it hisses a fair amount of air out/ from pressure building and unable to release through POS VALVE. Then your valve is junk. Which most are. It just takes time to the pressure to ruin the oil tank gasket seal

No it runs good under 7000 rpm.

 

[Yamaha50th]

I’m in the same damn boat still. I have 2 winders doing the same thing and I’ve tried a bunch of things to try and get it resolved. At first I thought it was the return line fitting. Drilled them both and they ran great for over 900 miles. Thought that was it until they did it again a few weeks ago and thought it was bad fuel. Purged all fuel and tried again. Not the problem. Then thought it may be a heat saturation thing and fuel was vapor locking in line and rail as they seemed to be acting up when temps were hovering close to freezing or just over. Ran them last night in 15-20* air, ran perfect other than the trails being rock hard due to a warm day and rain the day before and engine ran hotter than usual but still ran fine. Ran them again today and both ran like garbage and the temps were 15-22* again and trails were granulated but better than yesterday as engine temps were 172-176 consistently. I’ve tried various fuels, fuel additives such as octane booster, injector cleaner, k-100, stp gas treatment in case of water in tank, ethanol and non ethanol fuels etc. I have the updated elbow in the return line. My sled ran worse than hers and wouldn’t go over 35 mph without a loss of power and backfiring. It would backfire like a semi automatic rifle coming down hills while just engine braking and it would stall at just about every road crossing or junction. I’m about outnof patience with these things. Regretting selling the vipers as we put over 15k miles on those without an major issue. Only issue we had was the fuel pumps would break a wire but that is a free 20 min fix. I hate not being able to figure out something that’s inconsistent. You think you narrowed it down and then it gets debunked and I’m back to square one. No dealer has ever heard of the issue, no one on here or anywhere else knows what’s going on and the factory claims they are a perfect masterpiece with zero issues ever.

Just solved the problem, air hose from air filter was getting oil residue so when I mashed the throttle it was restricting the air flow and the computer was going into ‘limp’ mode. Oil tank was slightly overfilled from the factory causing it to get into the air box.


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[Noel]

Just solved the problem, air hose from air filter was getting oil residue so when I mashed the throttle it was restricting the air flow and the computer was going into ‘limp’ mode. Oil tank was slightly overfilled from the factory causing it to get into the air box.
Dealer said its ready , supposedly i had moisture in one of the sensors then they tried it and it almost sent them over the handlebars but this time gave an overreving code so they adjusted the secondary and its ok . Im picking it up saturday morning and trust me im going for a ride before i leave there. Will post the results. Fingers crossed . Glad to hear yours is ok.

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[jetpilot785]

Just solved the problem, air hose from air filter was getting oil residue so when I mashed the throttle it was restricting the air flow and the computer was going into ‘limp’ mode. Oil tank was slightly overfilled from the factory causing it to get into the air box.


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I hope it works out for you. I called around before and got the same old from everyone. Never heard of it. On my way home from my trip that was cut short due to sleds acting up and Mother Nature not fully cooperating, I was driving by a dealer I have driven past numerous times and never had a need to stop. I was desperate so I figured I would stop and see if they would deny it. To my surprise, they were very informative and told me that they have seen this numerous times and have been in contact with Yamaha about it and what they said is the sled is way undercooled from factory and in ideal conditions they run borderline hot and in less than ideal they overheat. He also mentioned they are 3 safety cut offs. The first is the midrange cut which the engine and intake temps are hot and need to be cooled before full boost can be made. Second safety cut doesn’t allow you to boost st all which limits you to 35-40 mph before it breaks up and back fires and the 3 safety is it will backfire during deceleration and then shut down when coming to a stop. I have experienced all 3 safeties exactly as he described them. Sounds like the sleds need not only more engine cooling but they also need more under the hood venting to dissipate the heat that just lingers and heat saturates everything.

He also said a good thing to check is the vapor reservoir which is attached to the hoop just above the roll over valve and just below the fuel line. He said when the engine is cold to remove the plug and the coolant should be up to the threads. He said most times, it’s empty or way low contributing to the overheating issue. I have to study this thing and find out what it does exactly. He claimed it helps cool the turbo after shut down by drawing hot coolant away from the turbo but I’m not sure exactly. I will have to study it and see what exactly it’s supposed to do.

 

[dgjr636]

I hope it works out for you. I called around before and got the same old from everyone. Never heard of it. On my way home from my trip that was cut short due to sleds acting up and Mother Nature not fully cooperating, I was driving by a dealer I have driven past numerous times and never had a need to stop. I was desperate so I figured I would stop and see if they would deny it. To my surprise, they were very informative and told me that they have seen this numerous times and have been in contact with Yamaha about it and what they said is the sled is way undercooled from factory and in ideal conditions they run borderline hot and in less than ideal they overheat. He also mentioned they are 3 safety cut offs. The first is the midrange cut which the engine and intake temps are hot and need to be cooled before full boost can be made. Second safety cut doesn’t allow you to boost st all which limits you to 35-40 mph before it breaks up and back fires and the 3 safety is it will backfire during deceleration and then shut down when coming to a stop. I have experienced all 3 safeties exactly as he described them. Sounds like the sleds need not only more engine cooling but they also need more under the hood venting to dissipate the heat that just lingers and heat saturates everything.

He also said a good thing to check is the vapor reservoir which is attached to the hoop just above the roll over valve and just below the fuel line. He said when the engine is cold to remove the plug and the coolant should be up to the threads. He said most times, it’s empty or way low contributing to the overheating issue. I have to study this thing and find out what it does exactly. He claimed it helps cool the turbo after shut down by drawing hot coolant away from the turbo but I’m not sure exactly. I will have to study it and see what exactly it’s supposed to do.

Personally I think this dealer is off. If this was a heat issue or under cooling there would be many more complaints of them cutting out.(what about high Hp Winders not having cooling issues). We have sold many Winders and not 1 complaint of cutting out yet. I’m not saying it’s not happening to some units but if it was due to lack of cooling there would be many more complaints.
On my own personal SW I put on just under 3500mi under all conditions (-32–+38* temps) and the sled never had 1 hickup.

I have to believe it is a moisture issue and creating issues with the sensors. We did have a viper a couple weeks back in service. This unit would go into limp mode and then cut out and shut off at a idle. We found the oil pressure sensor to have moisture in it and cause the shut down. We replaced and all was good. I’m not saying the oil pressure sensor is everyone’s problem on Winders cutting out just stating that moisture can cause all the sensors to act up.

 

[Hammer Down]

does anyone have the real skinny on this yet? I had this once but went away after adding dry gas over night and then running it for 10 miles or so. Very cold conditions I was never really convinced that was the real solution.

 

[jetpilot785]

Personally I think this dealer is off. If this was a heat issue or under cooling there would be many more complaints of them cutting out.(what about high Hp Winders not having cooling issues). We have sold many Winders and not 1 complaint of cutting out yet. I’m not saying it’s not happening to some units but if it was due to lack of cooling there would be many more complaints.
On my own personal SW I put on just under 3500mi under all conditions (-32–+38* temps) and the sled never had 1 hickup.

I have to believe it is a moisture issue and creating issues with the sensors. We did have a viper a couple weeks back in service. This unit would go into limp mode and then cut out and shut off at a idle. We found the oil pressure sensor to have moisture in it and cause the shut down. We replaced and all was good. I’m not saying the oil pressure sensor is everyone’s problem on Winders cutting out just stating that moisture can cause all the sensors to act up.

It very well could be Don Jr. We talked on the phone today for a good hour and I myself am not totally convinced it’s cooling but I can’t rule anything out as no one has a clear cut answer to it. If you’re had one sled acting up and the other running fine, I would say it’s something stupid but both sleds do the same thing at the same times. They both either run excellent or they both cut out and backfire. Sometime one worse than the other but both do it. Like I told you on the phone. Hers did it a couple of times the first night she rode it with a whole 50 miles on a brand new unit and mine ran perfect and then I went home and updated the return line fitting as others were saying were too restricted and they both ran flawless for almost 1000 miles and then they both did the same day at the same time so we thought maybe bad fuel/ water in fuel as it was too much of a coincidence. Purged the fuel on both and both did it again first ride out so we eliminated that. Then I threw octane booster, injector cleaner, k-100 and gas treatment in there one at a time and nothing. Then the weather cooled off and the sled ran good in the better snow and then warmed up a little, snow got heavy and it did it again. So now I’m thinking heat related issue. Then comes rain and next day a freeze and trails are rock hard. Engine temps were at 190-210 but sleds ran hard again. Very next day not touching a thing, trails loosen up, engines run at 172-176 and they pop and fart like never before. I’m at a total loss on them both. As we talked I failed to check intake temps and that’s on me so I don’t know what they were so next time I run it, I will take note what they are when running good vs breaking up. Talked to the dealer I bought it from and they claim they have a “special” in with Yamaha and will dig something up and let me know what’s going on in a day or two. Every dealer seems to have an “in” but I don’t buy it. Every dealer should be able to communicate with factory reps and what not and get the low down on stuff. I used to work at a couple dealers and they both had reps at their respected camps. Either way, hopefully someone comes up with something soon otherwise I’m out and going back to the NA motor.

 

[jetpilot785]

Forgot to add that the one dealer I stopped at on the way home from my shortened vacation due to sled issues claimed there are 3 safety’s in the system from heat. First safety keeps it from boosting all the way and will cut out in the mid range somewhere and speeds are around 70-80 mph. Second safety won’t let sled boost at all only allowing speeds around 40-50 mph and third safety will #*$&@ engine down which I have also experienced when it got to the point where it would stall at most road crossing and intersections and even cut out mid corner when letting off the throttle and then trying to roll back into it slowly. Not sure if he is right or being an arrogant smartass as he was very proud of himself and claimed he knew what no one else does but either way, I’m desperate at this point and I’m open to any and all ideas.

 

[jetpilot785]

Took the intercoolers off yesterday and didn’t found a trace of water in them. A little oil but that tends to be the norm for forced inducted setups. Pulled the boost lines off the sensors and they were clear. I played around with unplugging sensors and each time a code tripped and cleared on its own when plugged back in. I even simulated a TORS issue and got code 84 and it cleared as well when released so everything appears normal and since the issue never trips a code, not sure what it could be. Anyone have any more issues or a possible fix?

 

[Hammer Down]

Root cause identified for this issue yet ? Yamaha engineers should be all over this issue!

 

[jetpilot785]

Root cause identified for this issue yet ? Yamaha engineers should be all over this issue!

I’ve been calling all over to dealers and performance shops like Evo, Excell, Hurricane etc and the only 2 places that had a clue what I was talking about was Woodys Performance in Maine and I talked to Ryan at Hurricane and both said they have dealt with that issue in the recent past and they both seem to think it was fuel pressure related. Ryan said his fathers sled was doing it and they replaced both the fuel pump and regulator and it hasn’t done it again and Woodys said they have had at least one they replaced the regulator as well and symptoms stopped. I may try putting a digital fuel pressure gauge on it and see what fuel pressure looks like and see if it changes drastically when it acts up. That may tell me if it’s a fuel pressure issue. On my turbo ski, the only time I ever felt it lay down was when I would put it on the limiter and the exhaust pressure dropped and the boost pressure dropped with it and the fuel pressure stayed the same so I knew it was an ecu limit I reached vs a fuel delivery issue. I had my ecu flashed and had the rev limit raised and that was the issue. It banged the boost level and rpm level I was trying to achieve and hasn’t missed a beat in 2 seasons. With that experience I loaded up the weight in the primary and lugged the peak rpm down to 8300-8400 to see if it was a rev limit issue and as I suspected when it was running perfect in the 8700-8800 range earlier in the year that wasn’t the issue but I felt I needed to test that to be sure I wasn’t missing something.

Oh Ryan at hurricane also said he had noticed that several of their Sidewinders were hard starting and idled high due to fuel starvation and when he would crack the tank cap, the sleds idled down and sounded good so he modified the tank vent to eliminate the check valve as he felt it wasn’t working as well as intended. I did try and crack my cap when it was acting up the first time and it sounded and felt like a fuel starvation type of thing but it didn’t change how it ran so I didn’t test that theory again.

And then there was a whole lot of never heard of it before followed by it could be this or that which I have already gone through ie: oil level, oil/water in intercooler and/or air filter, loose clamps in charge tubes, oil/water in sensors, low coolant level, overheating engine etc. I was even told by Excell before we got “disconnected” ( I think he hung up on me as when I called back 15 seconds later, he mysteriously stepped out of the shop but had time to tell the guy that answered the phone next some of the story. Yeah OK) that he had a guy complaining of similar symptoms and he put new plugs in and it seems fine as he hasn’t called back to complain.

So the long and short of it is, it could be ANYTHING lol

 

[upnumber6]

I was kinda thinking about this today. Now maybe it was posted on this thread and I missed it. But is there any body that has a tuned sled experiencing this same situation? Or is it just stock or somewhat stock sleds?

 

[jetpilot785]

Mine is still at the dealers and as soon as i find out what they find will let everybody know , hopefully they find something.

Ever get anywhere with your issue?