Yamaha and Snocross

[yam177]

What wins on the sno-x track may not relate to what you do with a sled, but wouldn't you like to have the r and d that goes alone with racing backing up how your sled is designed? Take for instance the Nytro, while no trail ride would want the shock valving that the race sled had but I'm willing to bet just about every person on this forum would prefer the front end that the race sled had. Not for geometry reasons but strength and durability reasons. Guess what happens when you use the same parts for racing as your production? The race sled doesn't cost $500,000 plus you get grass roots teams using your product, whichever equals more sales to the public as they see your product performing. This applies for both the actual racers and the wannabe racers. What I've learned about my Nytro over the past few years is that it isn't competitive (race) in $500,000 form let alone stoke form. Meanwhile I can go and race another brands sled right from the factory. Mmm let me think about which brand I want to ride.

The only brand right now that shares much from the race sled and consumer sled is the XP. Both Cat and Poo build specific sleds for racing. Even the XP has additional bracing and parts than the consumer model. What works in racing does not always equate to trail riding very well. Its hard to not go into to many specifics but what was tested in XC does slowly make it way to engineering and then they evaluate that information

 

[low slung]

Yamaha works in the direction of build the sled first,then race it.The other three makers race the sled first,then sell it to the public.When yamaha starts to have sucess in snowmobile racing the rule book is slapped across there face(or in the case of the 1998 SRX600,change the rules before the sled hits the track).They have the best technology(1974 SRX 440 sno-pro with a single layer of carbon fiber in the hood,doubt anybody in F1 knew what carbon fiber was at that time ).its just a matter of ROI(return on investment) and whether the rules will be changed to suit the competition(buell/AMA tried this in superbike racing so the rules would suit the harley powered bike against the in-line four hondas, yamahas,kawis,etc.then honda and yamaha dropped the factory support,not a smart move when 80% of the field is foreign brands).

 

[low slung]

Powersteering on a cross-country sled,reduce rider fatigue.Now were talking .

 

[yamahabandit]

Yam177-- I disagree regarding only Doo racing a consumer based sled. Last time I checked polaris and the Rush is having considerable success in cross country. No need to have a limited build race sled to be successful.

 

[spike337]

Powersteering on a cross-country sled,reduce rider fatigue.Now were talking .

That's what i need on my bike so i don't get 'arm pump'!

 

[RJH]

hmm...The guy that used to race the factory Yamaha..correct me if I am wrong..but I think he finished in the same position on his new ride...as he did on the yamaha..when they attended a few US pro races this year...

However he is amazing to watch at the Ontario level.

The Yamaha had it..just nobody could get it right.is my opinion..

 

[AKrider]

Yam177-- I disagree regarding only Doo racing a consumer based sled. Last time I checked polaris and the Rush is having considerable success in cross country. No need to have a limited build race sled to be successful.

Ahhh... yes and no. I wouldn't say Polaris is having "considerable success" with the Rush/Pro-R. While they (Huntington/Olds) did win this year's Iron Dog last week, they also won it last year on Polaris Shifts. This year's win only tells me the sled isn't a complete piece of sh!t. Yamaha won the Iron Dog back in 1990 with the Exciter and because my Dad owned an '88 Exciter and I owned a '90 Indy 500 at the same time, I knew then and know now that the Indy was a better riding, tougher, more predictable sled for bashing bumps than an Exciter. All the sleds that run the Iron Dog are extensively modified and this years race could have easily went to Mckenna/Vanmeter on Doos (until they sunk it while leading) or Palin/Quam on their Cats (until Palin wrecked, costing them the lead).

The Rush/Pro-R did not set the world on fire last season in USCC racing (didn't even light a sparkler) as it didn't win anything. Bunke quit racing his Rush after only two races. This season, the only win I know about is Bobby Menne in semi-pro earlier in the season. Has their been another win? I didn't check the USCC standings before posting this, but I saw Bunke back riding the IQ600R in a recent photo so.. kinda figured things went the same as last season. Polaris did an excellent job hyping up the Rush as a "game changer", but I've sure not seen it make the same impact on racing or the market as did the Rev or the original TXL Indy.

 

[AKrider]

Yam177-- I disagree regarding only Doo racing a consumer based sled. Last time I checked polaris and the Rush is having considerable success in cross country. No need to have a limited build race sled to be successful.

Ahhh... yes and no. I wouldn't say Polaris is having "considerable success" with the Rush/Pro-R. While they (Huntington/Olds) did win this year's Iron Dog last week, they also won it last year on Polaris Shifts. This year's win only tells me the sled isn't a complete piece of sh!t. Yamaha won the Iron Dog back in 1990 with the Exciter and because my Dad owned an '88 Exciter and I owned a '90 Indy 500 at the same time, I knew then and know now that the Indy was a better riding, tougher, more predictable sled for bashing bumps than an Exciter. All the sleds that run the Iron Dog are extensively modified and this years race could have easily went to Mckenna/Vanmeter on Doos (until they sunk it while leading) or Palin/Quam on their Cats (until Palin wrecked, costing them the lead).

The Rush/Pro-R did not set the world on fire last season in USCC racing (didn't even light a sparkler) as it didn't win anything. Bunke quit racing his Rush after only two races. This season, the only win I know about is Bobby Menne in semi-pro earlier in the season. Has their been another win? I didn't check the USCC standings before posting this, but I saw Bunke back riding the IQ600R in a recent photo so.. kinda figured things went the same as last season. Polaris did an excellent job hyping up the Rush as a "game changer", but I've sure not seen it make the same impact on racing or the market as did the Rev or the original TXL Indy.

 

[AKrider]

Also, Doo is the only OEM racing a consumer chassis. Both Cat and Polaris run limited build, 600 race sleds for use in snocross and XC racing. Doo's RS600 race sled is a consumer XP chassis with lots of reinforcements, different shocks, skid frame, motor, etc. Still, it is based off the consumer XP. Neither Polaris or Cat can claim the same thing.

 

[Ruckus]

Snowcrossing a Yamaha is like entering the Baja 500 in an Escalade.

 

[yam177]

Yam177-- I disagree regarding only Doo racing a consumer based sled. Last time I checked polaris and the Rush is having considerable success in cross country. No need to have a limited build race sled to be successful.

The rush was raced By Justin Tate and Bunke, also Bobby Menne for a couple races. I have not seen it raced by any of them since the I500, Most of those drivers prefer he IQ I know Menne's Rush was barley held together.

The only Pro running the Rush full time is Jesse Thelen, you can look at the results hope this helps. Corey Davison and other are mainly running the IQ.


And trust me the RS is different in alot of ways than a Standard XP, but it is the close to a mass consumer sled. Artic does have the Snopro 500 as a consumer sled albeit only a limited build consumer sled.


I am at Every USCC race I have a pretty good Idea what goes on there. Any sled can be competitive depending on course and conditions I had a 7th place finshis and a few top tens with the Nytro this year

 

[AKrider]

Interesting to hear about Menne's Rush. What's funny to me is for how much Polaris has marketed the progressive rate rear suspension in the Rush, they fail to mention the front arm/center shock is a falling rate design. So they basically have a rear skid where only the back half is progressive rate.

 

[Rick27]

The 500 build quota needed to race in the stock division alone would stop Yamaha from wanting to build a race sled. Without racing in stock divisions you lose the conection to your customer base. The Nytro is not and can not be competetive in it's stock form. The startup costs to deliver 500 units is so cost prohibitive that they would be crazy to even try. We raced for a factory snox effort for three years and we had feedback from all teams, data alone because of the sheer size of the effort was more than the paltry effort Yamaha could ever get. You can't compete with a two rider team as your whole effort. Better to do as they have done and just stay on the sidelines unless you are willing to come with a full blown effort. By the way every Arctic Cat team at the national level gets Tuckers setup information so you people are right he's the differance, not his equipment.

 

[pwa]

The 500 build quota needed to race in the stock division alone would stop Yamaha from wanting to build a race sled. Without racing in stock divisions you lose the conection to your customer base. The Nytro is not and can not be competetive in it's stock form. The startup costs to deliver 500 units is so cost prohibitive that they would be crazy to even try. We raced for a factory snox effort for three years and we had feedback from all teams, data alone because of the sheer size of the effort was more than the paltry effort Yamaha could ever get. You can't compete with a two rider team as your whole effort. Better to do as they have done and just stay on the sidelines unless you are willing to come with a full blown effort. By the way every Arctic Cat team at the national level gets Tuckers setup information so you people are right he's the differance, not his equipment.

Tucker is something else for sure but 5 of the first ten in Pro Open are still Cats and I think Tucker just ride one of them. 4 of top ten in pro super stock is cat and number 11 and 12 are cats.

So my conclusion must be that Cat is the most competetive sled for the race track last year and this year.

Its like saying that Rossi and Lorenzo is the difference not the rest of Team Yamaha.

Team Yamaha in MotoGP is the very best and most professional team with the best driver (they lost Rossi) and the whole made them World Champions last year. See Casey Stoner a very good rider on his Ducati... Nope... I hope you see what I mean.

 

[AKrider]

What is said about not being able to have a good race effort with two riders is completely true. First off, if one of the riders crashes or breaks your chances of winning goes dwon to 50%. Second, they simply don't have the wealth of data that is provided when 100's of guys are racing your sled all around the world.

The AC Sno-Pro is a very, very good sled and a versital one as well. I really liked the Rush I rode, but I don't see it being compititive in sno-x and the Cat doesn't seem to have any weird suspension quirks.

But, I sure did like the way the Rush felt at high speed, going through the rough. Very stable and confidence inspiring. I'm sure a Sno-Pro would feel the same way if the suspenion was set up for your weight and riding style.