I used to be able to view the Powersports business Market Data book online. They recently changed the free access and now want $50 for a year subscription. What was cool about the book was it showed market share for snowmachines, ATV's watercraft and motorcycles. Polaris was #2 since '03 when Doo took over the top spot. The last year I saw it, maybe '08, Poo and AC were neck and neck.
I agree that with a Yamaha, you don't need to replace it as quickly as the other brands. Both my Nytro and Vector have over 3000 miles apiece on them and if they were 2-strokes, I'd be getting nervous. I usually got rid of my 2 stroke sleds around that many miles just so I didn't have to deal with a catastrophic engine failure.
I think Yamaha could benefit from offering a competitor to the 600 ACE. The Phazer is not a good bush or work sled IMO. I don't care for it as a beginner sled either simply because it has the stupid 14" wide track that is not going to float as well in deep snow. The narrow track makes the sled undesirable for me because it is not versatile enough.
I agree that with a Yamaha, you don't need to replace it as quickly as the other brands. Both my Nytro and Vector have over 3000 miles apiece on them and if they were 2-strokes, I'd be getting nervous. I usually got rid of my 2 stroke sleds around that many miles just so I didn't have to deal with a catastrophic engine failure.
I think Yamaha could benefit from offering a competitor to the 600 ACE. The Phazer is not a good bush or work sled IMO. I don't care for it as a beginner sled either simply because it has the stupid 14" wide track that is not going to float as well in deep snow. The narrow track makes the sled undesirable for me because it is not versatile enough.
BombaPolaYama
TY 4 Stroke Master
Rather than pushing people into certain sleds, maybe it's more like stocking what they can sell.SSX600 said:
BombaPolaYama
TY 4 Stroke Master
Can't quite seem to figure out what your point is there - sorry.pwa said:
BombaPolaYama
TY 4 Stroke Master
You are only thinking of the mountain Phazer with the 14" track. The VL has a 15" and the MP has a 16" track. Now I wouldn't expect the VL to perform well in deep powder like a 20" track model. However, I use mine for wood hauling (3rd year now) and I am still amazed with the ease at which you can start off with a full load with hardly any strain as compared with previous 2 strokes that I have used. It is also surprisingly manoeurvable and has a fairly tight turning circle. The thing I see with Yamaha is that they will make a sled and a engine to go with it so if you do not like the particular engine you have no choice. Ski-doo on the other hand offers a variety of engines in just about every model they make, including the Tundra for 2011. When was the last time yamaha updated the Bravo? Never.AKrider said:
Yes, you are right. I didn't consider the VL because it is more sled than I need. I've never understood why they constructed it to take a 15" wide but didn't do so with the standard Phazer. I'd never heard of the MP before until you mentioned it. I went to Yamaha Europe to check it out. I'm glad to see that Yamaha has a sled like that in the line-up.
Sounds like from your experience that the Phazer's high RPM twin works well for slow speed,work type situations.
Sounds like from your experience that the Phazer's high RPM twin works well for slow speed,work type situations.
BombaPolaYama
TY 4 Stroke Master
Yeah, I couldn't be more pleased with how well it hauls for a 500cc engine.AKrider said:
Yes, for some reason, the Multi-purpose is not available in the US. I didn't know the standard track on the Phazer was 14".
Honk
TY 4 Stroke Master
I was talking with my dealer today. He told me he and many others in our area have dropped Cat from their line-up. He claimed Cat was very hard to deal with, and it was just to hard to make any money at all. He claims about the last five years as being the worst of 25 total. So he claimed in our 50 mile area 5 dealers quit AC this year. and two went out last year. He did keep Yamaha, saying they have been a great company to deal with. The other problem is the companies are not making enough entry level sleds, and the age group of buyers is getting older and older. So just the hardcore group is left, like 40 to 60 year olds. To bad, its my favorite sport, and it may be gone someday soon?
kingedwards99
Expert
dirkdiggler said:
Big Difference, I Have yet to hear of a skidoo with 20 some thousand miles on the original motor or whatever the world record was. I'm always in it for the long haul, and reliabilty. I rode a 09 800r and was'nt impressed jumped on my brothers apex on the way home and was much happier, love the torque,and grunt of the yamaha 4 strokes after riding these proabably never go back to the 2 strokes. who really knows how reliable the etec will be.
Vectornut
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Had a chance to ride two 1200 Ski-Doos a month ago. The thing you will notice right off is the clutch engagement. The engagement is earily and very smooth at a lower RPM. You will love the gauge cluster, probabily the best out there. But, my 05 Vector just feels more substantial and ridged and feels like it is pulling much harder. The Ski-Doo also doesn't have that power surge resonation that you feel ever so slightly through the handlebars on the Yamaha's or the sound you hear from the dual exhaust. The 1200 is a very nice sled but, I still feel that the Vector has it all.
waynes
Veteran
IMHO there is no point in buying 4-strokes anymore. It is like buying a diesel in a pick-up. You have an engine that is good for lots of miles but the rest of the components are the same as the rest. You pay a lot more money and the resale is no better. I have had 3 four-stroke yamahas since 2005 and the re-sale blue book value of these sleds was no better than the 2-strokes. Fuel mileage on the 4-stroke not as good as the e-tec. I buy the utility sleds and the difference in price for a vk pro and an expedition 600 e-tec is $2500.00 and 150lb weight difference. I have sold my08 vk pro (in excellent condition and dealer maintained) for 1/2 of the cost of purchase price. This was still better then the dealer offered me, in fact they didn't want to trade right now anyway on account of too much inventory.
Not to mentioned that if I want a utility sled BRP has such a selection that I can pretty much build the sled I want with either 4 or 2 stroke.
With regard to quality Bomardier does build aircraft.
Our economy where I live hasn't suffered like some other areas and I see less and less new yamahas each year.
Not to mentioned that if I want a utility sled BRP has such a selection that I can pretty much build the sled I want with either 4 or 2 stroke.
With regard to quality Bomardier does build aircraft.
Our economy where I live hasn't suffered like some other areas and I see less and less new yamahas each year.
waynes said:
no point in buying 4strokes anymore??? pretty soon all there will be is 4strokes with regulations and all that. skidoos etec are sic, but blow up like its their job. 2-strokes are on their way out so you better get used to the 4 bangers.
Also that 1200 motor will outlast the doo by years to come and so will the new ace motor. Just what you get with aluminum bodied beatin machines.
Me personally I think as 4 strokes get more into sleds, we will all see tubed chassis sleds, similar to polaris but more invloved. And similar to quads etc.
sleds will be lasting many years as they progress. thats the future, the past is 2-stoke.
For the sled your looking for i agree with you, skidoo has yamaha beat in that segment for sure right now.
waynes said:
I agree with some of what you are saying but not all of it. I laugh when I see the ads stating Yamaha has the highest resale value. Maybe they do in Japan but not here in Alaska. Very few people want a Yamaha 4-stroke up here because they are heavy. They are also electric start only which is not the hot set-up if you live in the interior and it is often -20 F or colder most of the winter. Then you have the tunnel icing issues which add lots of weight to an already heavy sled if it isn't brought into a warm garage to thaw out every night. I think most of the Yamahas are being designed for people on the east coast and in Canada who ride groomed trails all the time.
But, the analogy to a diesel isn't accurate. If gas engine vehicles only ran for 30,000 to 50,000 miles and then burned down or had a major engine failure than I'd agree. My Vector has over 3000 hard miles on it mostly made up of ditch banging, practice, XC racing, and now mountain riding since I installed a longer track. If it was a 2-stroke I'd be getting nervous and would sell it. But, I just replace loose rivets and keep modifying it into a sled that works great for my needs. My Nytro will undergo the same transformation once I replace it. Both sleds have been run very hard and its nice to not have to deal with engine issues.
Ski-doo has a much better work sled line-up than does Yamaha IMO. I think their 600 ACE will be a nice improvement over the unreliable 550 fan it is replacing. Ski-doo makes a nice sled as I rode them for 10 years and still own a couple ZX models. I don't like the new eTecs because they are not using oil to lube the crankshafts. ALL the crank bearings are greased in order to comply with emissions. Greased bearings need to be repacked from time to time and crank bearings are not as maintenance friendly as the bearings on a sled or boat trailer.
TurboJamie
TY 4 Stroke God
I know I'll probably get flamed but for the time being I see no real benefit to 4stroke technology over etec technology. At this present time the etec is certified clean enough to get past the sniffer. Reliability is a concern for some however there are very few postings of etec troubles on dootalk. Similar for the 600 to the couple nytro motors I have seen pop up here. The 800 is to be determined at this point but for now it seems a winner mine has just over 1500 trouble free miles, I'm keeping it next season so it should have over 5000 after the season we'll see how it holds togeather and I will be posting if it does go down.
I'm well aware of DI on car engines I think yamaha could do some awesome things with a system like that I guess the market just doesn't need it at this time. One day if the powersports market requires a catalatic converter the 2stroke will have a hard time with that one vs the 4 stroke.
Im not saying that I don't like 4strokes I really loved my apex engine and nytro engine but now at this time after some time spent on etec its tough to beat it they are night and day vs a carbed 2 stroke.
I'm well aware of DI on car engines I think yamaha could do some awesome things with a system like that I guess the market just doesn't need it at this time. One day if the powersports market requires a catalatic converter the 2stroke will have a hard time with that one vs the 4 stroke.
Im not saying that I don't like 4strokes I really loved my apex engine and nytro engine but now at this time after some time spent on etec its tough to beat it they are night and day vs a carbed 2 stroke.
TurboJamie said:
i agree the etecs are sweet sleds, my last sled was an mxz sdi. But you gotta be kidding yourself with not seeing alot of post on dootalk about them blowing up.. they pop up like wildfire. I myself have known freinds who already blew the 800 etec. The sealed internal bearings are the prob, they need them to meet epa reg so they can keep the oil down. Its never going to work, and they know it or they wouldnt have now 2-fourstrokes in thier line up.
Overall i liked the power of 2-strokes better as you do, but lets get real.. they have always blown, and always will and now they are 10 times more expensive to rebuild.. bad idea imo. I rode the 800etec and loved it. But i would never be able to trust it.
TurboJamie
TY 4 Stroke God
Maxout01 said:
I guess until I have a problem with a 2S I'll keep them. I ride on average a 5000 mile winter and have never yet had a skidoo engine fail. My father rides with me every season on every ride just the same as I do and he has yet to have an engine fail either. Both of us have 800 etec sleds now and both have close to the same mileage (1500). So far so good haha. I'll let you know. So I can't see the side of the blowing with them as I have yet to have it happen and have had alot of sleds with a great track record. I tried an 800 assault last season and it lasted 600 miles before it was toast. I try just about everything out there thats new or cool and have always ended up back riding a doo. I do long overnight rides and never fear break down maybe call me lucky!
