2020 Release

[Mototown]

My buddy picked up his Indy 850 a couple weeks ago , went over and looked at it last night looked pretty good to me , 174 hp , lightest sled this year in the class , carbon fibre frame parts , light weight brake rotor , motor dropped down in the frame as far as it could go , he ordered any colour he wanted . Makes it pretty easy for a dealer to sell , chassis is basically the same for the last couple years .
Don't get me wrong , I love my sidewinder , but if Yamaha has a 850 2 s with all the new gadgets I would buy within 2 years , if there is only 4 s new sleds I will keep my sidewinder for 5 or 6 , that's the difference...

 

[T-Bone]

I bet it isn't. As stated before, it wasn't the motor that led to diminished sales.
They where fourth in sales WITH a two stroke in the lineup, so what difference did it make?
Why are we harping on 2 stroke engines so much in this thread? There isn't a 2 stroke engine made I would trade for my Yamaha four stroke.
I think MORE people are going with four strokes, not less. That's what I see out here in New England anyway.....

We harp on two-strokes because Yamaha's lack of one is one of the reasons they are in the situation they are in. Its quantity of sales that's important not that they were forth in market share. If they have averaged 25,000 sleds sold a year they could have justified spending money on R&D. You can say that all you want but Yamaha sales have been decreasing since they introduced the viper (good chassis). They sold 11,000 sleds worldwide in 2017. Ski-Doo sold approx 75,000. The more sleds they sell the more money for R&D they have. I like the 4-stroke over the 2 stroke too but I also want Yamaha to succeed and continue developing snowmobiles on their own. And with a 4-stroke only offerings they failed with both good and bad chassis/suspensions.

 

[whitedust1]

What ment was if Yamaha only goes off a engineering driven only , they use racing as a testing bed for new products , why did Yamaha walk away from racing 4s in snowcross 13 or 14 ?

Racing is not much of a test bed since the early 2000s personally I don’t follow any snowmobile racing anymore don’t think it is much of a factor to developing good engines and chassis for trail and powder. I remember the mono being tested from Pats up and down trail 3 Sunday afternoons when it was whooped and studdered to the max. The mono did smooth out studders well. Yamaha is engineering driven by developing what the engineers feel is comfortable technology ,low risk and robust. Yamaha steadfastly stuck with their 2s triples while Doo, Poo and AC we off and running with big bore twins up to 1000ccs. The market at that time was screaming light weight twins but not Yamaha.I talked to Yamaha engineers at a snow show and they were all in on the smooth power delivery of a triple vs peaky vibrating big bore twins and didn’t care about weight. He was correct from his engineering point of view and didn’t care what the consumer wanted from a marketing point of view. Yamaha is and always has been engineering driven. It would take a huge cultural change for Yamaha to develop what marketing wants from engineering. Yamaha always leverages current technology to the next new products just like exup installed for easy low risk hp from 150 to 165hp. I see this time after time with Yamaha year after year decade after decade. Yamaha just doesn’t listen to marketing and only develops tech engineers embrace thus here we are at survival crossroad and the new 2020 snowmobile will be a 4s recommended and developed by Yamaha engineers.

 

[Mototown]

Racing is not much of a test bed since the early 2000s personally I don’t follow any snowmobile racing anymore don’t think it is much of a factor to developing good engines and chassis for trail and powder. I remember the mono being tested from Pats up and down trail 3 Sunday afternoons when it was whooped and studdered to the max. The mono did smooth out studders well. Yamaha is engineering driven by developing what the engineers feel is comfortable technology ,low risk and robust. Yamaha steadfastly stuck with their 2s triples while Doo, Poo and AC we off and running with big bore twins up to 1000ccs. The market at that time was screaming light weight twins but not Yamaha.I talked to Yamaha engineers at a snow show and they were all in on the smooth power delivery of a triple vs peaky vibrating big bore twins and didn’t care about weight. He was correct from his engineering point of view and didn’t care what the consumer wanted from a marketing point of view. Yamaha is and always has been engineering driven. It would take a huge cultural change for Yamaha to develop what marketing wants from engineering. Yamaha always leverages current technology to the next new products just like exup installed for easy low risk hp from 150 to 165hp. I see this time after time with Yamaha year after year decade after decade. Yamaha just doesn’t listen to marketing and only develops tech engineers embrace thus here we are at survival crossroad and the new 2020 snowmobile will be a 4s recommended and developed by Yamaha engineers.

Well if they didn't come to a agreement with cat to borrow (and then fix ) cats fuel injection patent.... they both missed the boat on the 2 s sales again....

 

[T-Bone]

We all understand what has sold in the past, and you are right it has been big 2 strokes, but the question is why? I think the simple answer is that a sled that gives the best ride, the best handling, and the most power, wins! When Yamaha was making its own sleds, delta box Vectors and Apexes, Nytros, Phazers, etc., they had great engines with good power, but the suspension and handling were awful in comparison to what Polaris, Ski Doo and even Arctic Cat were producing. We all loved the Yamaha 4 strokes, but suffered through poor handling and rough rides. The best riding and most powerful sleds were 2 strokes, so that's what sold.

I don't know how many Vipers and AC 7000's were sold, but my guess (based upon what I see on the trails) is that the Pro Cross chassis was a shot in the arm for Yamaha's 4 stroke motors. Everyone I ride with has one. The combination of the Pro Cross and the Sidewinder engine certainly made a big splash in the snowmobile world, and everyone who wanted the fastest sled on snow wanted one. But, even then, the Pro Cross came out 8 years ago, and is/was an outdated chassis. Even with the Pro Cross, AC was a distant third behind Polaris and Ski Doo. The Axys Polaris suspension, or the Ski Doo R Motion suspensions are the ones that got all the rave reviews for comfort and handling. So, you stick a big 800 or 850 2 stroke in their chassis, and it will sell. How would Yamaha have done if it had made a deal with Polaris and gotten the Axys chassis, or Ski Doo and gotten the R Motion chassis? Yamaha has the engines that will sell lots of sleds, if they put them in a state of the art chassis. I am just hoping that AC and Yamaha are jointly developing a chassis to replace the Pro Cross that will put them at the top of the list instead of the bottom.

2017 Yamaha Sales.pdf

 

[T-Bone]

We all understand what has sold in the past, and you are right it has been big 2 strokes, but the question is why? I think the simple answer is that a sled that gives the best ride, the best handling, and the most power, wins! When Yamaha was making its own sleds, delta box Vectors and Apexes, Nytros, Phazers, etc., they had great engines with good power, but the suspension and handling were awful in comparison to what Polaris, Ski Doo and even Arctic Cat were producing. We all loved the Yamaha 4 strokes, but suffered through poor handling and rough rides. The best riding and most powerful sleds were 2 strokes, so that's what sold.

I don't know how many Vipers and AC 7000's were sold, but my guess (based upon what I see on the trails) is that the Pro Cross chassis was a shot in the arm for Yamaha's 4 stroke motors. Everyone I ride with has one. The combination of the Pro Cross and the Sidewinder engine certainly made a big splash in the snowmobile world, and everyone who wanted the fastest sled on snow wanted one. But, even then, the Pro Cross came out 8 years ago, and is/was an outdated chassis. Even with the Pro Cross, AC was a distant third behind Polaris and Ski Doo. The Axys Polaris suspension, or the Ski Doo R Motion suspensions are the ones that got all the rave reviews for comfort and handling. So, you stick a big 800 or 850 2 stroke in their chassis, and it will sell. How would Yamaha have done if it had made a deal with Polaris and gotten the Axys chassis, or Ski Doo and gotten the R Motion chassis? Yamaha has the engines that will sell lots of sleds, if they put them in a state of the art chassis. I am just hoping that AC and Yamaha are jointly developing a chassis to replace the Pro Cross that will put them at the top of the list instead of the bottom.

Yamaha sales are down 50% since the introduction of the viper. 21,000 sleds sold in 2014, 11,000 sleds sold in 2017.

 

[Monster Max]

I love this site, but I feel a majority of guys/gals are from out east...I could be wrong. There is reason that most of the latest tech goes into the mountain category, it’s the biggest market share as per snowmobile.com: Mountain 29% - crossover 27% - trail performance 21%. The crossovers have a lot of mountain DNA.

I love riding my big power 4 strokes in the big hills but I am a very very small minority. This is where Yamaha needs to step up with some new lightweight tech...and if so be it, a 2 stroke.

 

[jjmoneysauce]

I wouldn't be surprised to see a reintroduction of something about the size and speed of a Bravo or Enticer, but with a 4 stroke motor. We'll see in 2019!

 

[Deeppow16]

I don't ride off trail - never have (would like to someday though). I'm asking to get a better understanding. Since you are a 2 stroke proponent, what drives that decision for you and those you ride with? It appears to be weight by your posts, and I fully understand wanting light weight if you ride off trail. With that said, if a 4S in a good chassis can compete pound for pound with a 2S (like within 20lbs of each other) would you/your group buy a 4S? Is there other advantages to a 2S that I'm missing? I would sure think a rental company would rather rent a 4S for reliability, but obviously not if people don't want them.

There are a couple different reasons we choose a 2 stroke over a four stroke. The first is the weight issue. When your on a slope that has a 80% grade and you need to adjust the sled quickly you are going to notice the 100lbs difference and for me that could be the difference between climbing the hill or having a totaled sled. The second reason is for me is the ease of working on them. In 15 mins I can have my sled tore down to nothing. Also the maintance is less for me. The new chassis makes it a pain to change oil and it makes a huge mess. Its easier for me to just add oil in the morning and I'm on my way. I got tired of wrenching on my sled. There is way more stuff to go wrong on a 4 stroke and I'm not taking the chance of a part failure 20 miles back in the mountains. I can also roll my sled when its stuck and not worry about it puking out oil and I can run my sled upside down without worry also.

 

[Deeppow16]

the off-trail segment is roughly 25% of the market, maybe they dont care to devote all the R&D to smaller section of the market.

The off trail market is the largest market right now. There is a another post here showing the stats on that.

 

[Sasquatch]

Just saying, Yamaha had a massive display at the annual snow show this year, and some hints of possibilities for the new sleds to be released for 2020. It is highly, highly unlikely that they are exiting the sled business, unless one supposes for some reason that the several inside folks who have spoken to it on record are lying and/or ignorant. On the contrary, the (re)introduction of the SnoScoot should perhaps point towards some possibilities for filling gaps in their lineup. I think that they recognize that the $20k sleds are just plain out of reach for most folks. I'll be hammering that website in March for sure.

I dont think Yamaha is exiting the sled business they are producing engines and buying Cat chassis for their dealers and customers. I think that will continue into the future.

 

[Mototown]

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/11/08/bombardier-job-cuts/
Things are not rosey here either

 

[Sasquatch]

what if yamaha and ac worked together to build a better 2 stroke. You guys have said yamaha is really good at building motors from what it sounds like ac 2s did not do so well with problems like they have had in the past with there motors. So if yamaha gets 2s would ac also make money on yamaha selling 2s. If they are staying together wouldn't it benefit them both to have a rocking 2s. So if they both climbed the ladder to move up in sales. Wouldn't ac be better off getting yamahas knowledge in the 2s area.

I think if Yamaha and Cat/Textron decided to create a two stroke agreement like their current four stroke agreement one could see Yamaha collaborating on the two stroke side. I think this is the only way Yamaha has a chance to ever have a two stroke sled again. Only real downfall is they have not developed a two stroke sled motor since the 90's. They can draw from other areas but how it will help a Cat two stroke I don't know. The question is does Yamaha want a two stroke and does Cat want to share theirs? I guess it depends on how deep down the rabbit hole they want to go? This would make them full partners two and four, seems simple but when I listen to them talk about the four stroke side of it it was anything but simple.

 

[sideswipe77]

There are a couple different reasons we choose a 2 stroke over a four stroke. The first is the weight issue. When your on a slope that has a 80% grade and you need to adjust the sled quickly you are going to notice the 100lbs difference and for me that could be the difference between climbing the hill or having a totaled sled. The second reason is for me is the ease of working on them. In 15 mins I can have my sled tore down to nothing. Also the maintance is less for me. The new chassis makes it a pain to change oil and it makes a huge mess. Its easier for me to just add oil in the morning and I'm on my way. I got tired of wrenching on my sled. There is way more stuff to go wrong on a 4 stroke and I'm not taking the chance of a part failure 20 miles back in the mountains. I can also roll my sled when its stuck and not worry about it puking out oil and I can run my sled upside down without worry also.

2 strokes break down a hell of a lot more than 4 strokes ever will. Have you ever seen a 4s on fire or seen one broke down on the side of road not I. I have seen many of 2s on side of trail 4s are the most trust worthy sleds out there. 4s can last for ever whiles 2s blow burn or just plain break. How many recalls have you seen on 4s Deeppow16?

 

[Mototown]

I think if Yamaha and Cat/Textron decided to create a two stroke agreement like their current four stroke agreement one could see Yamaha collaborating on the two stroke side. I think this is the only way Yamaha has a chance to ever have a two stroke sled again. Only real downfall is they have not developed a two stroke sled motor since the 90's. They can draw from other areas but how it will help a Cat two stroke I don't know. The question is does Yamaha want a two stroke and does Cat want to share theirs? I guess it depends on how deep down the rabbit hole they want to go? This would make them full partners two and four, seems simple but when I listen to them talk about the four stroke side of it it was anything but simple.

Ktm & Husqvarna are doing quite well selling dirt bikes together , as ktm is the one main contender in MX now a days , Yamaha would be well aware how that’s working for them .