2020 Release

[Sasquatch]

2 strokes break down a hell of a lot more than 4 strokes ever will. Have you ever seen a 4s on fire or seen one broke down on the side of road not I. I have seen many of 2s on side of trail 4s are the most trust worthy sleds out there. 4s can last for ever whiles 2s blow burn or just plain break. How many recalls have you seen on 4s Deeppow16?

I agree I have heard this four stokes have more parts that could break a lot. Yet they don't. Two strokes have less parts that break. Yet they do. Doo is proud of their 6% failure rate in the first year of life. What it is for 2nd 3rd they don't say never mind say 10 years. Yamaha four stroke failures are a fraction of 1% in 10 years of life. Yet somehow some people still believe two strokes are more reliable.

 

[Deeppow16]

2 strokes break down a hell of a lot more than 4 strokes ever will. Have you ever seen a 4s on fire or seen one broke down on the side of road not I. I have seen many of 2s on side of trail 4s are the most trust worthy sleds out there. 4s can last for ever whiles 2s blow burn or just plain break. How many recalls have you seen on 4s Deeppow16?

That's funny because my Yamaha 4 stroke left me stranded 3 times last year. The thing couldn't even make it out of my garage to go on my first trip because the damn starter locked up. If I would have had a 2 stroke that wouldn't have happened and I could have went on my trip. Needless to say I was PISSED!

 

[Deeppow16]

I agree I have heard this four stokes have more parts that could break a lot. Yet they don't. Two strokes have less parts that break. Yet they do. Doo is proud of their 6% failure rate in the first year of life. What it is for 2nd 3rd they don't say never mind say 10 years. Yamaha four stroke failures are a fraction of 1% in 10 years of life. Yet somehow some people still believe two strokes are more reliable.

Motor wise yes 4 strokes are better other then that all the sleds are the same. They use the same bearings, same fuses, same materials to build. they just put them together differently so your argument is not that valid.

 

[Sasquatch]

That's funny because my Yamaha 4 stroke left me stranded 3 times last year. The thing couldn't even make it out of my garage to go on my first trip because the damn starter locked up. If I would have had a 2 stroke that wouldn't have happened and I could have went on my trip. Needless to say I was PISSED!

Yep and every two stroke motor I ever had, broke and left me stranded yet in 30,000 miles my four stroke motors have not. So your nytro motor broke three times?

 

[Deeppow16]

Yep and every two stroke motor I ever had, broke and left me stranded yet in 30,000 miles my four stroke motors have not. So your nytro motor broke three times?

Like I said, Its not the motor. There are many other things that can live a person stranded. I had a starter break and lock up. Lost a bearing behind the secondary. Oil tank cracked and leaked out all my oil. Luckily I caught that before the motor ran dry. Yamaha makes a hell of a motor but everything else is used between all the brands.

 

[Sasquatch]

Motor wise yes 4 strokes are better other then that all the sleds are the same. They use the same bearings, same fuses, same materials to build. they just put them together differently so your argument is not that valid.

Nope they don't four strokes use pressure feed Babbit bearings, two strokes use inferior ball/roller bearings. What fuse's have to do with it I don't know. Materials is a vague term so you would have to elaborate on that. I think my argument is quite valid while yours not so much.

 

[biffdotorg]

The thing couldn't even make it out of my garage to go on my first trip because the damn starter locked up. If I would have had a 2 stroke that wouldn't have happened and I could have went on my trip.

I get your point, but a starter failure has nothing to do with 2-stroke/4-stroke. The lack of a recoil starter is the issue. It just so happened that all 2-strokes had a recoil backup. Up until the last couple years that was true. But all my buddies with newer Etec's the recoil is an option on E-start models. So a starter failure leaves them in the same boat. And the same procedure of wrapping a rope around the primary comes into play. It's just an easier pull on a 2-stroke.

 

[STAIN]

The off trail market is the largest market right now. There is a another post here showing the stats on that.

Those numbers are very misleading.It shows sled sales. Trails sleds ride almost exclusively trails, Crossover sleds ride mostly trails. Some mountain sleds are on the trails. I see and ride with people who ride mountain sleds almost entirely on trails. How many 121's are in the hills? None.There is no way there are more people riding mountains than trail riding.
I agree the mountain segment is a great place to introduce new engine/clutch tech as mountain riding is very hard on these components. The trail market is the bread and butter of the industry.

 

[Sasquatch]

Like I said, Its not the motor. There are many other things that can live a person stranded. I had a starter break and lock up. Lost a bearing behind the secondary. Oil tank cracked and leaked out all my oil. Luckily I caught that before the motor ran dry. Yamaha makes a hell of a motor but everything else is used between all the brands.

Again every two stroke I ever had went boom at some point in its life, some many times more then once, as you said all the rest is the same and breaks the same. In less then 10,000 miles two strokes have left me stranded at least a dozen times just because of the motor. Four strokes have in 30,000 miles only left me stranded twice one time I broke the suspension and the other the drive shaft. Both after over 9,000 miles and the suspension was still driveable but not very rideable. Hey I get the other reasons for wanting a two stroke but the motor is less reliable and that is what I took issue with, its also the reason I went four stroke.

 

[Deeppow16]

Again every two stroke I ever had went boom at some point in its life, some many times more then once, as you said all the rest is the same and breaks the same. In less then 10,000 miles two strokes have left me stranded at least a dozen times just because of the motor. Four strokes have in 30,000 miles only left me stranded twice one time I broke the suspension and the other the drive shaft. Both after over 9,000 miles and the suspension was still driveable but not very rideable. Hey I get the other reasons for wanting a two stroke but the motor is less reliable and that is what I took issue with, its also the reason I went four stroke.

I get that! For me I'm lucky if I get 5-600miles on a year so a 2 stroke is going to last me a long time which is why I switched to one.

 

[Deeppow16]

I get your point, but a starter failure has nothing to do with 2-stroke/4-stroke. The lack of a recoil starter is the issue. It just so happened that all 2-strokes had a recoil backup. Up until the last couple years that was true. But all my buddies with newer Etec's the recoil is an option on E-start models. So a starter failure leaves them in the same boat. And the same procedure of wrapping a rope around the primary comes into play. It's just an easier pull on a 2-stroke.

This is something I have never understood. For a trail guy, sure it would be fine but you cant put electric start on a mountain sled form the factory and try to compete in the weight department. Now there shot system is the answer to that. If only Yamaha could bring out tech like that.

 

[T-Bone]

2 strokes break down a hell of a lot more than 4 strokes ever will. Have you ever seen a 4s on fire or seen one broke down on the side of road not I. I have seen many of 2s on side of trail 4s are the most trust worthy sleds out there. 4s can last for ever whiles 2s blow burn or just plain break. How many recalls have you seen on 4s Deeppow16?

This is not about what is better. It matters how you define better. If I'm an off-trail rider. the lighter the better and could really care less about how planted a heavier sled feels on the trail. Both 2 and 4-strokes have their place where they shine but when a manufacture doesn't give you that option or a sled that functions good enough in all conditions, it leads to the situation Yamaha is in right now.

 

[Monster Max]

Those numbers are very misleading.It shows sled sales. Trails sleds ride almost exclusively trails, Crossover sleds ride mostly trails. Some mountain sleds are on the trails. I see and ride with people who ride mountain sleds almost entirely on trails. How many 121's are in the hills? None.There is no way there are more people riding mountains than trail riding.
I agree the mountain segment is a great place to introduce new engine/clutch tech as mountain riding is very hard on these components. The trail market is the bread and butter of the industry.

How can total sled sales be misleading? There are more mountain sleds bought per year than trail sleds. So if you are a manufacturer you are looking at what is selling...not what's on the trails. That is why most of the new goodies end up in the mountain segment and where they make their money. This is where Yamaha is so far back.

 

[Wannaviper]

Yamaha sales are down 50% since the introduction of the viper. 21,000 sleds sold in 2014, 11,000 sleds sold in 2017.

My dad used to say: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." (in that order.) I looked up Yamaha's "Fact Book" for 2014 and 2015 with write-ups for snowmobile sales in 2013 and 2014 respectively. The reason why they sold 21,000 sleds in 2014 can be summed up in one word, "RUSSIA". According to Yamaha's reports, in 2014, Russia bought 9,000 sleds, or 42.7% of Yamaha snowmobile sales. In 2017, your graphic shows that Russia only bought 1,000 sleds, or 9.8% of Yamaha's sled sales. I don't know why Russia stopped buying Yamahas; maybe because they were built in the U.S.? According to Yamaha's own reports, they only sold 4,000 sleds in the U.S. in both 2013 and 2014. Your graphic shows that they sold 3,000 sleds in the U.S. in 2017. That is a 25% reduction, but 20-25% is consistent with the sales reduction in the entire snowmobile industry during that same time period. By 2017, the vast majority of the 3,000 sleds Yamaha sold had to be Pro Cross chassis sleds, either Vipers or Sidewinders, and let's not forget about all the Arctic Cat 7000 series sleds and Thundercats (Vipers & Sidewinders in AC clothing) sold in 2017. If you added AC's numbers to the 3,000 sleds Yamaha sold in the U.S., I'll bet Yamaha sold more sleds (or sled engines) in 2017 than they did in 2013 or 2014. Let's face it, we know that the delta box sleds and Phazers weren't selling in 2017, otherwise they wouldn't have discontinued them.

 

[TrueBlue]

I get your point, but a starter failure has nothing to do with 2-stroke/4-stroke. The lack of a recoil starter is the issue. It just so happened that all 2-strokes had a recoil backup. Up until the last couple years that was true. But all my buddies with newer Etec's the recoil is an option on E-start models. So a starter failure leaves them in the same boat. And the same procedure of wrapping a rope around the primary comes into play. It's just an easier pull on a 2-stroke.

Not true if the 2 strokes didn't have electric start like my Viper. Recoil broke & could not get it started.