2021 Release?

[JMS@Yamaha]

Jared: I appreciate you coming on here. Not an easy thing to do. I admit I cracked several jokes on here tonight. Then I found an e-mail showing your response. I bought my first 2 new sleds in the last 3 years. 16 & 17 Vectors. Other than the rear shock I was extremely impressed with the quality. The programmable throttle worked as advertised. My wife has MS so the power steeering is what I was after for her. The Apex had too much torque. After her road testing a 2012 Apex XTX. My research on the web. Brought me to the new Vector with the programmable throttle. For her. She never complained to me about the rear suspension. So when I blew up my modified Cat. I told her I was tired of working on my sled. And I bought one for myself. The Singleshot rear suspension on my Vectors is so bad I almost bought a new Viper this year.I used to be a Cat Rider. I did not like the color of the left over models. Blue Orange. I agree that the Pro Cross chassis. Rides better than the Deltabox. But at 60.5 yrs old. I did not buy these to have to work on them and reengineer them. And I can’t believe that the first new sleds I have ever bought. Riding since 89. Had a rear suspension worse than my 2001 Cats. Just my 2 cents. I also can’t believe you new you had a problem with the rear shock. Developed a fix. But only offered it to the Apex owners. To me that is what turned me off to your company. I did just purchase one for $350.00 Even though I bought your YES warranty on both these machines. Any way good luck in your new releases. I have owned many Yamaha products over my years always loved them. Hope the sled division can live up to the reputation that your products have had over the many years I have enjoyed them!

Snorunner i appreciate the post. I understand your frustration on the vector skid. The new shock should make a big difference for you. I spent a fair amount of time on my fathers 2018 Apex X-TX, and the bump compliance was quite good. Our apologies that campaign rolled out the way it did which left you on your own, we hope the sled has been treating you well otherwise its a great sled!

I don't get it. There is no perfect snowmobile!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes there have been issues with the Sidewinders
Switching brands isn't going to eliminate having issues.
At least they offer a great, reliable and powerful motor that is the envy of all other brands.
My 17 Winder has 15500kms on it...……………...I'll be signed up for a new one

 

[Vmaxkid]

JMS - does that mean that Yamaha is looking at and going to recall the drive shaft slop, cheap bearings that fail, bolts falling out of the tensioner, blow off valve freezing causing the gasket seal to blow out on the oil tank, etc? Yamaha must have spent tons fixing all these issues under warranty just to have them occur again because the parts aren’t quality ones or designs were poor. People on this forum have been complaining about these issues for years now. Do we see that Yamaha has acknowledged a fix for them other than just putting the same parts back in? Back in the day when Yamaha saw a problem they took care of it right away. Example in 98 cranks were bending on Srx’s. It wasn’t a widespread issue but before it got to be Yamaha had dealers pull them send them out to be fixed. Now known prone issues are happening and nothing is done except for in model year changes. Sight glass removed, blow off valve redesigned and braided hoses added to exchanger. You’ve acknowledged by replacing these components that they failed to be of quality design or components but what is being done for everyone who has these already in previous years. Again I point out that people pay good money, I mean a lot of money for these sleds today. Yamaha stood by their products and the quality of them in years past. What are they going to do now? People typically bought Yamahas because they were of higher quality and you weren’t typically the one left on the trail side or being towed home. So the legitimate question is if there isn’t quality in the product or the manufacturer isn’t going to make things right why buy the product and stay loyal?
One final comment. I was in Quebec last season. Stopped at a Yamaha dealer. Riding my Apex XTX at the time. Amazing machine. You guys got that one right for sure. Saw a sidewinder being worked on in the shop. The Chaincase was completely ripped apart. I said to the tech working on it I’d love one of those. He said “junk”. Keep your Apex it’s the best machine Yamaha ever built. I didn’t take his advice. I bought a Sidewinder end of season last year. I will admit it has amazing power and the handling is better than the Apex. But the quality isn’t there by a long shot. My blow off valve froze causing the seal to blow out and oil leak. The chain tensioner bolts were literally backing out of the threads when the case was opened up. I had to buy Barn of Parts fixes for the suspension and hose protectors. Why Should the consumer who spends a lot of money on these sled fix Yamahas mistakes?
I think the consumer deserves answers and fixes.

 

[HMTurbo]

I'll work through some comments here...



We talked about scale-ability in the VLOG from Japan. As a company Yamaha works towards building engines that cross over many product segments. The 998 in the sidewinder shares components with products in our Side by Side business, Watercraft business and Motorcycle business. Taking the large investment to develop an engine and spreading it across multiple product segments makes the business numbers work.

When it comes to snowmobiles we are presented a very unique product group. If you look across all of our other product offerings each of those engines have shifted to primarily 4-stroke including competition motorcycles. We are happy with the success of the Sidewinder and SRViper in trail and crossover segments, however the Sidewinder MTX was not competitive in the mountain side of the industry. With customers putting a strong emphasis on a 2-stroke mill for the mountains.

Working with our supply agreement partners we felt bringing a relevant, innovative vehicle such as the MM8 with Single Beam suspension to the market with a lightweight 2-stroke power-plant helps to support our western dealers as well as bring a 2-stroke to the market in a very short time.





Great Post.

We are actively working on future projects with AC, when a project such as the SXvenom/Blast makes its way to the market this project has been many years in the making with engineers from both sides. We worked through many different engine options, chassis options, clutches, and inevitably came to market with a vehicle that we feel delivers on each of our design targets. We are also working to be as fluid as we can with shifting market requests, Mountain Max is a prime example of that. As we phased out the Sidewinder M-TX, we worked towards bringing a 2-stroke to the market that our consumers were asking for. The innovation of the single beam rear suspension combined with the lightweight of a 2-stroke we feel makes a very capable snowmobile to fit that market need. The bulk of our business remains on the trail side however this year our expansion into mountain segment, a cost effective 2-stroke 7/8th side SMB and expansion of our utility line helps to broaden our product offering.

Thank you for coming on and taking the time to talk directly with Yamaha enthusiasts. A direct connection with consumers and the mfg is an important tool in my book. Too many industries rely on dealers for this interaction who unfortunately are uninformed about the direction of the company when it comes to the products the consumers buy.

I'm in manufacturing and I understand the need to spread out cost in both product development as well as manufacturing. I run into some of the same issues with my current customers who we've partnered with on the past in developing new products.

That being said it comes down to commitment to the industry. A company has to want to be the industry leader or it simply is satisfied with 3rd or even 4th best when it comes to products and sales. 4th best is last in sledding. Every single issue you discuss Polaris, SkiDoo and AC deal with as well however their commitment to the industry is unmistakable.....especially Doo and Poo. Yamaha lost this commitment and lost sales. This meant less less development money and the cycle has continued to spiral downward to the point we are at today.....very little Yamaha in Yamaha sleds.

BTW I'd love to buy the tooling for the old Yamaha SnoScoot and SnoSports. I'd love to improve upon this design and bring a true 1/2 size sled back to the market.

 

[Deeppow16]

I have mixed emotions about this release. Part of me is happy to see new models but the other part is disappointed because its all cat. I would have zero problem with the new Mountain Max IF the motor was a Yamaha design. That being said I would oped for the Cat. Sorry Yamaha you screwed that one up. Same with the Blast. It should have gotten the phazer motor. I was hoping that Yamaha would pull me back in but I think this was the final nail in the coffin for me. Yamaha you wont be getting my money any time soon. You have had all the opportunity in the world to address all the problems people have been having but you sit and hid. I'm sorry but this is a piss poor company. They would have been better off never doing this BS partnership thing.

 

[greatwhite89]

JMS- thank you for taking the time to contribute the discussion. 2600 miles this year on my 2020.Venture TF. All smiles.

Can you speak briefly on the Transporter 800? I do most of my riding on trail. Could that sled be used effectively in a adventure touring application? Thanks!

Snorunner i appreciate the post. I understand your frustration on the vector skid. The new shock should make a big difference for you. I spent a fair amount of time on my fathers 2018 Apex X-TX, and the bump compliance was quite good. Our apologies that campaign rolled out the way it did which left you on your own, we hope the sled has been treating you well otherwise its a great sled!

 

[staggs65]

No doubt the sidewinder is a speed demon. I'd like to see Yamaha address issues such as:
- OEM skis that work
- Improved rider ergonomics
- Technology advances such as touch screens with GPS maps installed
- Improved chassis designs - other OEM's continue to improve and evolve their design
- Clutching and belt life improvements
- weight
- etc...

Just haven't seen enough forward thinking as a consumer for the Yamaha product in several years.

They kinda have done alot of those things.
New Skis this year
My 2020 has different controls than my 17
New 146 suspension for 2020 XTX
New front end geometry making arguably the best front end in the biz even better
Better plastics on the Vipers than the early years
Alot of other little things.
Could they do more, sure. But it's not like they are the exact same sled as the 14 Viper and 17 Winder

 

[TRWISCO]

Venom is cool, transporter 800 is cool, transporter lite is cool, the mountain max is cool, the Winders are cool, wish there was a Viper BTX, but I digress. The perception is widely that most of Yamaha's lineup is "all Cat" with Yamaha graphics. It is, for lack of a better term, grounding to see JMS describe the collaboration that took place before the products were released; whether the products can stand up to customer whims and the test of real world conditions remains to be seen. If there is no difference in the mechanics of the sleds, the question that I come up with is, why would someone choose a Yamaha over a Cat or vice versa? Is there enough of a difference in warranty to justify the price differences? I don't know. I don't know the business. It's great that Yamaha brought some 2 strokes out, and it's great to see mid sized sleds. Heck I might even hop on to the transporter lite or Venom since they are the size I am after.

This seems similar to the Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra, they seem to be the same thing mechanically, just different badges and maybe interior treatments, different front end too, but its never made sense to me.

 

[hibshman25]

We are constantly working to improve quality. For 2021 we have removed the sight glass from the chain-case and replaced it with a check plug, we have replaced the hose that connects the front and rear heat exchanger with a braided hydraulic hose to prevent any issues with ice contact. The IQS models have been improved with different internal components. We are still working through the chain-case gear and driveshaft at this time.

This is positive progress for sure! I have been tearing down Yamaha sleds for years and I still occasionally stumble across part refinements from different years that I was not aware of. Things such as extra gussets, increased material thickness, larger bolts ect. The Japan models were refined year after year and I always felt Yamaha lost some of that when joining up with Cat.

Love the concept of the Venom. It's the sled I have been wanting to see....except the two stroke part. Yamaha hooked me on 4 stroke and having to go back to a 2 stroke really has me dragging my feet. How much influence has Yamaha had in this motor? If I have to go back to two stroke I won't be as reluctant if Yamaha had serious involvement in it's development. Is there any DCS technology in this motor? The idea of having to worry about fuel quality again will be less of a concern if DCS is present.

One other quick question..what track pitch on the venom? 2.52 or 2.86? All the cat build trail sleds have been 2.86. Math doesn't hold out for a 121 with 2.86 pitch so I'm assuming it is 2.52.

 

[TPAY243]

JMS I would also like to thank you for coming on here and explaining and answering questions. I know there is only so much you can say but no matter what you say or do you won't make certain individuals on this site happy, they are non stop bitching and complaining about the Pro Cross Yamaha while still driving around on snowmachines that have been retired from Yamaha's line up. They have no intention on buying anything new no matter what Yamaha comes out with. Some were saying they were going to move on to different manufacturers if Yamaha did not bring out a machine that they thought was needed. Well I hope they move on because I'm sick and tired of all the negativity they bring to this site. I think you(Yamaha)are doing a great job in the industry with the cost of these machines and the crappy winter's we have experienced the last 5yrs. I will have you know my 2014 Viper is still running strong with over 7000 miles. It is time for something a little newer so I will be upgrading to a Sidewinder this fall.

 

[biffdotorg]

Also I noticed on the Yamaha Website under features for the Venom they list a servo activated reverse. I believe that is a mistake. The cat unit I rode had engine reverse which eliminates the troublesome mechanisms in the case.

This leads me to believe that a four stroke version has potential. This is actually a good sign in my eyes, as it means Yamaha may be leaving the door open for something like the Phazer motor. Otherwise, the question above has total merit, why? This has to be the only explanation.

(EDIT: I see Jaret confirmed it was a typo. Grr 4-stroke aspirations crushed again)

Maybe Yamaha "collaborated" more on this new sled than we are giving them credit for.

And as far as beating up Yamaha for the late release, March is the proper release timeframe. Power Surge and new model release has always been this time of year. The fact is, AC is still in firesale mode and was forced to announce 2021's way too early. This was to show the Ditch Pickle faithful that their MFG of choice actually had plans to make sleds another year. It was probably a business decision to keep Textron stock up more than anything.

 

[cannondale27]

The transporter lite is a real gem. The clutches engage smooth and low and allow you to navigate tight areas very easily. They also stay engaged very low (~3000rpm) allowing you to lug it through tight slow terrain.

One big push for us is 4-seasonality for our dealer network, the same dealer a customer buys his outboard, boat or motorcycle from is the dealer that sells and services his snowmobile. Building this relationship and keeping customers in the same dealer is very important.

Programs differ greatly between brands, availability in season vs spring order also differs. There are many factors to consider.



1. We are working on improving quality of the units constantly, as outlined in one of my above posts.
2. This year marks a significant shift in our product offering, we are targeting new areas of the market that we were not in before (MTN, Affordable mid size, 2-Stroke Utility), and we are able to have a diverse offering due to our supply agreement and collaboration with our partners at AC. At this time we are happy with the current relationship and quick speed we have to react and bring products to the market.

Unfortunately i wont be at Ottawa, i will be in Barrie.



It is an ongoing agreement.



You are correct it is engine reverse which spins the motor backwards.



You understand. Time to market and ROI all affect decisions made for the product offering. Getting relevant products to the market and expanding to more segments help to strengthen the business. As with the inventory correction in 2019 each decision is methodical with the overall business in mind.

Thank you! It’s great to have someone from Yamaha clarifying things.

 

[biffdotorg]

Only one Viper too.Why is my only option $20000+ turbos?Not gonna happen.

Cleaning out the supply of 1049cc engines before moving to the NA998 in future models.

 

[74Nitro]

JMS - does that mean that Yamaha is looking at and going to recall the drive shaft slop, cheap bearings that fail, bolts falling out of the tensioner, blow off valve freezing causing the gasket seal to blow out on the oil tank, etc? Yamaha must have spent tons fixing all these issues under warranty just to have them occur again because the parts aren’t quality ones or designs were poor. People on this forum have been complaining about these issues for years now. Do we see that Yamaha has acknowledged a fix for them other than just putting the same parts back in? Back in the day when Yamaha saw a problem they took care of it right away. Example in 98 cranks were bending on Srx’s. It wasn’t a widespread issue but before it got to be Yamaha had dealers pull them send them out to be fixed. Now known prone issues are happening and nothing is done except for in model year changes. Sight glass removed, blow off valve redesigned and braided hoses added to exchanger. You’ve acknowledged by replacing these components that they failed to be of quality design or components but what is being done for everyone who has these already in previous years. Again I point out that people pay good money, I mean a lot of money for these sleds today. Yamaha stood by their products and the quality of them in years past. What are they going to do now? People typically bought Yamahas because they were of higher quality and you weren’t typically the one left on the trail side or being towed home. So the legitimate question is if there isn’t quality in the product or the manufacturer isn’t going to make things right why buy the product and stay loyal?
One final comment. I was in Quebec last season. Stopped at a Yamaha dealer. Riding my Apex XTX at the time. Amazing machine. You guys got that one right for sure. Saw a sidewinder being worked on in the shop. The Chaincase was completely ripped apart. I said to the tech working on it I’d love one of those. He said “junk”. Keep your Apex it’s the best machine Yamaha ever built. I didn’t take his advice. I bought a Sidewinder end of season last year. I will admit it has amazing power and the handling is better than the Apex. But the quality isn’t there by a long shot. My blow off valve froze causing the seal to blow out and oil leak. The chain tensioner bolts were literally backing out of the threads when the case was opened up. I had to buy Barn of Parts fixes for the suspension and hose protectors. Why Should the consumer who spends a lot of money on these sled fix Yamahas mistakes?
I think the consumer deserves answers and fixes.

Admittedly, some problems should have been fixed sooner, but you are way over-exaggerating problems on this sled.
And that fellow in Quebec is dead-wrong. You don't want to keep riding an Apex.

 

[VyperNation]

Just wanted to break up the warranted negativity here with a little bit of positive. There is still a Yamaha branded sled on the market. I take pride when I hang my coat up at the bar that it says Yamaha on it, as I know most do. There isn't a more brand loyal group of riders out there. I for one, have at least one 2021 on order. I also want to thank, first and foremost, everyone who contributes here on TY4. Without all of your help, I would be lost. You guys really make my machines. Second major thanks is to Travis at BOP. My sleds wouldn't be what they are without his passion and dedication. And lastly, a thanks to the poor soles at Yammy that lurk in here and take the abuse of our frustrations. It always comes to a pinnacle on snow even day.

That having been said, lets face it. Snowmobiling is a shrinking sport/market. Winters have not been what they used to be, here anyway. I haven't been able to really ride from my cabin since the winter of 2012. Average age of driver's license obtainment has never been higher, and home ownership has never been lower in the generation we have coming up right now. I truly feel these are important facts when considering the risk of being in this market. It is difficult for me to blame Yamaha for their conservative stance.

However, that does not discount the failing reliability issues with these sleds. I understand this kind of power has never been put in a stock sled, and the first few years were forgivable, but its time to step up the game. We all know the issues I am talking about, so I won't list them here. It is frustrating to have to put 3k into a brand new machine to feel comfortable with it. I don't look forward to having to do it all over again, but at least it appears some of the issues have been fixed. I am, however, looking forward to the change in chassis (from a coupled 137).

 

[SqueezeER]

I'll work through some comments here...



We talked about scale-ability in the VLOG from Japan. As a company Yamaha works towards building engines that cross over many product segments. The 998 in the sidewinder shares components with products in our Side by Side business, Watercraft business and Motorcycle business. Taking the large investment to develop an engine and spreading it across multiple product segments makes the business numbers work.

When it comes to snowmobiles we are presented a very unique product group. If you look across all of our other product offerings each of those engines have shifted to primarily 4-stroke including competition motorcycles. We are happy with the success of the Sidewinder and SRViper in trail and crossover segments, however the Sidewinder MTX was not competitive in the mountain side of the industry. With customers putting a strong emphasis on a 2-stroke mill for the mountains.

Working with our supply agreement partners we felt bringing a relevant, innovative vehicle such as the MM8 with Single Beam suspension to the market with a lightweight 2-stroke power-plant helps to support our western dealers as well as bring a 2-stroke to the market in a very short time.





Great Post.

We are actively working on future projects with AC, when a project such as the SXvenom/Blast makes its way to the market this project has been many years in the making with engineers from both sides. We worked through many different engine options, chassis options, clutches, and inevitably came to market with a vehicle that we feel delivers on each of our design targets. We are also working to be as fluid as we can with shifting market requests, Mountain Max is a prime example of that. As we phased out the Sidewinder M-TX, we worked towards bringing a 2-stroke to the market that our consumers were asking for. The innovation of the single beam rear suspension combined with the lightweight of a 2-stroke we feel makes a very capable snowmobile to fit that market need. The bulk of our business remains on the trail side however this year our expansion into mountain segment, a cost effective 2-stroke 7/8th side SMB and expansion of our utility line helps to broaden our product offering.

So are you saying that the single beam, the motor and chassis for the Venom, was a combined design effort from Yamaha and Arctic Cat, meaning its not JUST Arctic Cat stuff?