Best Helix

[Janne339]

That is what I'm saying. I was at 95 degrees wrap today because I have my Helix's drilled with add 5* holes, on a V1 B/O with stock 35* helix and killed TWO XS belts upon switching to the 300 HP tune. It scaled at 165-303 and you could see the RPM climb pretty high at speeds starting up over 100 MPH on the logs as I look at them. For comparison, the SRX secondary I set at 80 with the new V2 on 35* is 217-372 on stock rollers. And I actually tested it this AM when the shop was cold at 218-402. That is some extreme side pressure and its just a V2 set at 80 on a 35 helix! I keep testing it because I can't believe its as high as it is. I remember when I switched to the Hi-Torque rollers in, I was forced to lighten up on the primary weight a bunch! They messed up my whole clutch package and I started to eat belts again after I thought I had an handle on belt blowing.

Its no wonder we are all over the board on these things! Without me testing on the drill press scale I'd never know how the secondary rollers affect the secondary side pressure! Throw the charts all out the window because they mean nothing with dealing with different rollers, torsion spring twist, etc.

The side pressure means everything to the belt and slippage vs. no slippage. It's why testing on a drill press scale accurately, means so much.

More helix, higher number = less secondary pressure.
Less spring wrap = less secondary pressure.
Easier to roll better rollers = less secondary pressure.

"Sticking", "binding rollers" like the stock Yamaha rollers in my drill press scale make for much higher scale numbers at the start, and even more so at the finish compared to the easy rolling Hi-Torque rollers. So Hi-Torque rollers need much stiffer springs and wraps to equal lighter springs as the stock Yamaha rollers do on the scale. I'm to the point of possibly going back to the sticky Yamaha rollers to apply more secondary pressure, or maybe going back to the heavy Cat springs, even on the XS 825. The XS does not show signs of slippage in the clutches like the 8JP or 8DN other than to just shine up the clutch faces. I have a new Gates Redline belt coming to try as well, we'll se how that one does.

I've done everything I can to lighten things up to make life easier on the primary rollers and make them last longer, but it might just be time to go back to a heavier secondary setup with more side force.

Two XS belts blown in less than 15 min today. I felt one was a freak thing, then the second went 10 min later. Its not pretty. The SAGA continues for the perfect balance and belt longevity. These two XS belts both have about 600 miles on them. And yes, they line up with the Hurricane bar perfectly, however I was allowing 1.5 mm of float which could also contribute to a mis-alignment. I find floating when under power to stick outward on hard acceleration, I may go back to locking the secondary down for no float again too.

View attachment 158871


View attachment 158872



View attachment 158873

Sorry to see that mess!

Have you ever scaled the cat red/white torsion spring in your drill press?

 

[KnappAttack]

Sorry to see that mess!

Have you ever scaled the cat red/white torsion spring in your drill press?

No, Its one of the only Cat springs I do not have. I've tested and ran the Cat EPI purple, Dalton white (exact same as Cat green), Dalton Black/Lime and Cutler Silver/White. I like the Cat springs in the Yamaha secondary, they just have to be clocked differently.

 

[fatchance]

I have used the Cat red/white in the past with good results. I eventually went with stiffer Cat springs when I increased my helix angle. A TAPP went in this off season so I put the Cat red/white back in to start the process over again. No snow to test yet here.

 

[Janne339]

I have used the Cat red/white in the past with good results. I eventually went with stiffer Cat springs when I increased my helix angle. A TAPP went in this off season so I put the Cat red/white back in to start the process over again. No snow to test yet here.

We have to much snow for testing..

My wifes Viper is buried!

 

[SideHogger]

We have to much snow for testing..

My wifes Viper is buried!

View attachment 158874

There's a nice problem to have!

 

[SideHogger]

That is what I'm saying. I was at 95 degrees wrap today because I have my Helix's drilled with add 5* holes, on a V1 B/O with stock 35* helix and killed TWO XS belts upon switching to the 300 HP tune. It scaled at 165-303 and you could see the RPM climb pretty high at speeds starting up over 100 MPH on the logs as I look at them. For comparison, the SRX secondary I set at 80 with the new V2 on 35* is 217-372 on stock rollers. And I actually tested it this AM when the shop was cold at 218-402. That is some extreme side pressure and its just a V2 set at 80 on a 35 helix! I keep testing it because I can't believe its as high as it is. I remember when I switched to the Hi-Torque rollers in, I was forced to lighten up on the primary weight a bunch! They messed up my whole clutch package and I started to eat belts again after I thought I had an handle on belt blowing.

Its no wonder we are all over the board on these things! Without me testing on the drill press scale I'd never know how the secondary rollers affect the secondary side pressure! Throw the charts all out the window because they mean nothing with dealing with different rollers, torsion spring twist, etc.

The side pressure means everything to the belt and slippage vs. no slippage. It's why testing on a drill press scale accurately, means so much.

More helix, higher number = less secondary pressure.
Less spring wrap = less secondary pressure.
Easier to roll better rollers = less secondary pressure.

"Sticking", "binding rollers" like the stock Yamaha rollers in my drill press scale make for much higher scale numbers at the start, and even more so at the finish compared to the easy rolling Hi-Torque rollers. So Hi-Torque rollers need much stiffer springs and wraps to equal lighter springs as the stock Yamaha rollers do on the scale. I'm to the point of possibly going back to the sticky Yamaha rollers to apply more secondary pressure, or maybe going back to the heavy Cat springs, even on the XS 825. The XS does not show signs of slippage in the clutches like the 8JP or 8DN other than to just shine up the clutch faces. I have a new Gates Redline belt coming to try as well, we'll se how that one does.

I've done everything I can to lighten things up to make life easier on the primary rollers and make them last longer, but it might just be time to go back to a heavier secondary setup with more side force.

Two XS belts blown in less than 15 min today. I felt one was a freak thing, then the second went 10 min later. Its not pretty. The SAGA continues for the perfect balance and belt longevity. These two XS belts both have about 600 miles on them. And yes, they line up with the Hurricane bar perfectly, however I was allowing 1.5 mm of float which could also contribute to a mis-alignment. I find floating when under power to stick outward on hard acceleration, I may go back to locking the secondary down for no float again too.

View attachment 158871


View attachment 158872



View attachment 158873

Are your primary rollers still holding up with the Apex clutch?

 

[KnappAttack]

Are your primary rollers still holding up with the Apex clutch?

Yes, to the point I don't even pay much attention to them anymore. I suppose I should check them out good after blowing the two XS belts yesterday and make sure the bushings aren't cracked.

 

[ryama]

Sorry I deleted my post. I should of read what was before I posted this.

 

[STAIN]

Yes, to the point I don't even pay much attention to them anymore. I suppose I should check them out good after blowing the two XS belts yesterday and make sure the bushings aren't cracked.

Any chance that you are going to try a button secondary? Hard to beat an old button secondary for consistency. I have one here off a Viper I am fixing but dont really have anywhere to test it.

 

[KnappAttack]

I actually tested it last season for quite a few miles. It will need much less spring in it than the Winder secondary, however springs that work in the Winder will bind in the Viper secondary so be careful. Same with helix's, some bind on the hub prior to full shift. There are only a few spring options out there that don't bind in it actually. Dalton red is a good option.

I liked the Winder roller secondary better so went back to it and plan to stick with it for the foreseeable future.

 

[DMCTurbo]

Has anyone running big gears (1.68 - 1.58) ran a helix with a lower than 35 finish? I'm thinking it may help mph better on long pulls. Was thinking of trying something like a 39-33 or 41-33 or 40-30. I'm talking primarily speed running on ice. Thoughts???

 

[STAIN]

I ran a 32 finish, it seemed to crush the belt as I was getting belt smear in my secondary........

 

[justinator]

If your not slipping the belt I think the only thing you will gain is unneeded belt squeeze. Playing with different helixs last winter I can say that shallower helix angles were more consistent in varying snow conditions than steeper ones but of course accelerated slower in good conditions using my dragy gps to record. Being as you run alot of ice you usually have a more consistent surface than trail runners do. Any helix could probably be made to work with the right spring but seeing as you had some impressive numbers last season id say what you have works.

 

[DMCTurbo]

If your not slipping the belt I think the only thing you will gain is unneeded belt squeeze. Playing with different helixs last winter I can say that shallower helix angles were more consistent in varying snow conditions than steeper ones but of course accelerated slower in good conditions using my dragy gps to record. Being as you run alot of ice you usually have a more consistent surface than trail runners do. Any helix could probably be made to work with the right spring but seeing as you had some impressive numbers last season id say what you have works.

Thank you. Always looking for a little more

 

[justinator]

Thank you. Always looking for a little more

Yes no doubt, I am sure there is a combo out there that would probably give you some gains. Too bad it’s so expensive to get a pile of helixs to test with