Cold starting

[Doug7000]

I’ve wrote on a previous post my issue with hard cold starts on my 2017 XF7000. Just a refresher..... unless I had at least 13 volts at the battery, it would not start. I found that when cranking, there was no injector pulse. At 13 and higher, injector pulse was there and it would start. Starter seemed to be healthy when cranking. With the help of both Grizz and Stain, I thought it would be wise to pull the starter for inspection. Sure enough, one magnet cracked. Put new starter in and it fired up like never before. I’m shocked!!!! The starter seemed strong but it was robbing power from the ECM. I will post pics of the old starter magnets soon.
So for those you are having no cold start issues..... CHECK YOUR STARTER!!!!!!
I did everything from the access panel for the oil filter btw

 

[Big Pussy]

There are lots of pictures on the various forums of starters with loose and broken magnets. This could be from heat from the header or just very poor quality starters. This will cause very high cranking current dragging the battery down. I don't think any battery will hold 13 volts WHILE CRANKING a cold engine, even with a good starter. I would be very surprised if the battery could hold 12.2 volts WHILE CRANKING. At any rate, the battery used is too small for the application. The battery size used is the standard size that Cat has used for many, many years on almost all sleds. I can tell you that the same battery is used on my 2001 Thundercat, and it cannot crank the engine cold. In order to start cold, two people are needed. First the recoil is used for about 5 min to loosen up the engine. Then one person with a fresh arm pulls the rope while another turns the key to crank at the same time. This usually starts it on the first try. Knowing this since 2003, I am not surprised the battery won't crank a cold 1049 triple fast enough to start it without some heat in the bearings.

 

[Doug7000]

Totally agree on the cranking voltage. What I found if I measured the cold battery without charging, it was around 12.3-12.5 volts. On cranking, it would drop below 11.7 volts within a few cranks and rapidly drop to just below 11 volts. It would not start in that condition. Charge the battery to 13 volts ( excessive I understand) and the machine would fire up. This is a new battery btw. Grizz and Stain were right on their hunch ( and from past experience) the failed starter was drawing to much power and taking away voltage from the ECU. It was -18c here this morning and the machine started instantly using the new starter with no charger on the battery for a week. I’m so happy to finally have this machine running as is should because it has given me fits all winter!!!!

 

[grizztracks]

I'm not convinced that the voltage drop is the cause of it not starting. With a properly working starter and good battery there's sufficient voltage and engine rotation speed to satisfy the ECU for a successful cold start but with a broke or slipped starter magnet the starter's rotation speed would be decreased along with the possibility of a larger draw on the battery. I'm starting to believe that the updated ECU programing may use the crank position sensor to monitor the engines rotation speed during startup. If the required rotation speed isn't meet then the ECU won't fire injectors or ignition in an effort to help prevent kick back.....

 

[Doug7000]

I'm not convinced that the voltage drop is the cause of it not starting. With a properly working starter and good battery there's sufficient voltage and engine rotation speed to satisfy the ECU for a successful cold start but with a broke or slipped starter magnet the starter's rotation speed would be decreased along with the possibility of a larger draw on the battery. I'm starting to believe that the updated ECU programing may use the crank position sensor to monitor the engines rotation speed during startup. If the required rotation speed isn't meet then the ECU won't fire injectors or ignition in an effort to help prevent kick back.....

I see what you’re getting at now. I wish I could have compared engine cranking speeds on both my ‘14 and ‘17 but the ‘14 always started. Going by sound only, they sounded identical but I understand that’s not accurate. One thing I now for sure is this new aftermarket starter cranks the engine noticeably faster than before and faster than the ‘14. I hope I don’t jinks myself ...... maybe the ‘14 will require one soon to lol!!

 

[Doug7000]

I see what you’re getting at now. I wish I could have compared engine cranking speeds on both my ‘14 and ‘17 but the ‘14 always started. Going by sound only, they sounded identical but I understand that’s not accurate. One thing I now for sure is this new aftermarket starter cranks the engine noticeably faster than before and faster than the ‘14. I hope I don’t jinks myself ...... maybe the ‘14 will require one soon to lol!!

 

[Doug7000]

I'm not convinced that the voltage drop is the cause of it not starting. With a properly working starter and good battery there's sufficient voltage and engine rotation speed to satisfy the ECU for a successful cold start but with a broke or slipped starstarter's rotation speed would be decreased along with the possibility of a larger draw on the battery. I'm starting to believe that the updated ECU programing may use the crank position sensor to monitor the engines rotation speed during startup. If the required rotation speed isn't meet then the ECU won't fire injectors or ignition in an effort to help prevent kick back.....

 

[Doug7000]

 

[Big Pussy]

Last winter during a stay over at the Tata Chika Pika Lodge, north of Gogama, we did not plug in the 1049's since the forecast was -19C. It was much colder that morning and a 2010 Vector, 2016 Viper and my 2015 7000 would crank slower and not start. Both the Viper and 7000 had the 2019 flash. We plugged in the sleds and had breakfast. On return about 1-1/2 hours later, they all cranked faster and immediately started. No booster was used. So cranking RPM is VERY important. You get to know that and just stop trying to save the battery. That lodge was not on the grid but was fully wired and run on two diesel generators. A quick search found a working outlet within reach of my extension cord so the sleds were daisy chained together.

The Ski-Doo 800 XRS needed a hair dryer for half an hour so it could be pulled over just like this year. The three of use did not have to take the sleds apart for heating. There was a bunch of BRP 900's that started. A Sidewinder had seat and side panels all over the ground trying to start it. We got to the gas barrel first and got the last of the gas and hit the trail. That is what we usually see on very cold mornings.

 

[Doug7000]

The above pic is my starter. I apologize for the accidental posting of quotes guys.... I’m not very handy with this phone

 

[grizztracks]

The above pic is my starter. I apologize for the accidental posting of quotes guys.... I’m not very handy with this phone

The spacing of the broke magnet indicates it slipped. I've seen them slip without breaking but usually they end up in several pieces that can break away and cause starter gear damage. Glad you got it taken care of and now you'll be ready for next season.

 

[Vmax]

I see what you’re getting at now. I wish I could have compared engine cranking speeds on both my ‘14 and ‘17 but the ‘14 always started. Going by sound only, they sounded identical but I understand that’s not accurate. One thing I now for sure is this new aftermarket starter cranks the engine noticeably faster than before and faster than the ‘14. I hope I don’t jinks myself ...... maybe the ‘14 will require one soon to lol!!

Where did you buy the after market starter?

 

[Doug7000]

Where did you buy the after market starter?

I purchased it from Royal Distributing

 

[Vmax]

Great thanks

 

[Vmax]

With all of the cold start, back firing, battery voltage issues I decided to buy a ZR 6000 El Tigre. True statement but I am keeping my ZR 7000.
One can never have enough sleds in his garage plus if my wife or one of my boys or my brother want to tag along I am covered.
With a new battery and a battery booster I have no worries with cold start issues with my 7000